Rant on music theory ignorance.

[ResonantOrder]

Sonic Youth is a bad example. Thurston Moore and Lee Ranaldo spent extensive amounts of time with Glen Branca learning about different tunings. He eventually hired them to tune and play his custom stringed machines. You can't do that amount of in-depth work without theory. While the playing of instruments was experimental in certain ways on Daydream Nation, it couldn't have been done without theory. I saw Sonic Youth on that tour. They had dozens of guitars, all tuned differently. It was an organized disaster. One of the best shows I ever seen.

[Cordelia]

"One of the best shows I ever seen"
I agree. Exhilarating.

[Hink]

Sonic Youth is a bad example. Thurston Moore and Lee Ranaldo spent extensive amounts of time with Glen Branca learning about different tunings. He eventually hired them to tune and play his custom stringed machines. You can't do that amount of in-depth work without theory. While the playing of instruments was experimental in certain ways on Daydream Nation, it couldn't have been done without theory. I saw Sonic Youth on that tour. They had dozens of guitars, all tuned differently. It was an organized disaster. One of the best shows I ever seen.

huh...that's me...many tunings. One reason why theory has to enter into it. I cant just memorize positions knowing they'll always be the same note. I need to think in keys. intervals, chords, scales/modes, relationships of scales to chords and arpeggios...it really isn't that much of a disaster, but it is a form of organization that few besides the artist will understand

[Hink]

"One of the best shows I ever seen"
I agree. Exhilarating.

hi cordelia...how are you?

[ResonantOrder]

I meant disaster in a good way. A proper blending of chaos and order to where the outcome is more than either.

[androidlove]

Without using any theory, how would you accomplish that? Are the parts written, do you mention the chord names? Do you hum every part, do you mime them, do an interpretive dance? Do you just hope the guitarist and the bass player are playing in the same key, or would you be happy if they played in B and Bb at the same time? Does the drummer know the tempo (also basic theory) and time signature, or does everyone play any chords, or in any key, any time signature, at any tempo, all at once, and if so, why bother playing with other musicians in the first place?
I'm just guessing, but I'd bet you do use theory to communicate your ideas to other musicians. If knowing what an A major chord means when played on a guitar hasn't hurt your creativity thus far, why be afraid of understanding more?

i've always just recorded the parts. i also print out the order of song parts so no one forgets while we play. tempo = about this fast. i'll also jump on the drums to show a drummer what i have in mind.

the only thing i'm afraid of is the loss of time looking at information i don't care about

[androidlove]

crap, there's someone on my hometown board selling religion. i'm not buying that either. i guess i'm goin to musical hell

the way i understand it, sonic youth formed their sound through experimentation. they escaped the rules. i think the guitar played with a knife was just tuned to "that'll work". yes, they are good. look where rule abandonment got them

[Morgaxx]

I really enjoy these types of discussions. I understand both sides all to well. Imagine living in house with your bandmates (a 'serious' band that made money and had experiences). In this house we had 4-8 hour jams. People would stop in and play a while, some fairly big Canadian artists would drop by after shows in town and jam and have a drink/smoke. All of this was devoid of practicing theory, and it was GREAT. I learned how to just play, and have never feared an open stage/jam night(no matter who the host(s)).
On the other hand, I studied theory and comp/arrangement. These studies only helped re-enforce all that playing (learned by ear...refined by knowledge).

Somebody earlier wrote about communication and bedroom composers. I agree on that note. What IF you were sitting on the artist side of the glass in Nashville, and the producer was flashing signals to you? What do you do when he holds up 1 finger then 4 and then all five fingers? He is communicating a progression without any words/notation...can you play it? This is an extreme example, but it has a point. The person alone in the bedroom dosnt need this, however if that person bothered to learn beyond what is in thier head they may find themselves in the fortunate position of having to know what those fingers mean.

To me alot of what is said here is based on a lack of understanding/experience (I know this is a place of learning). The argument about not using theory is one. Others include discussions on mastering, and the use of the word produce/ing/er. I am not a snob, but I feel that the void between bedroom mouse clicker and musician can be vast. Similarly is the notion that an all freeware loaded P.C. can create the equvelent sound of a 2 million $ studio. You know, folks saying that tape/tubes/hi-end consoles are bollocks (WTF!). I think it comes down to never being in/hearing those kinds of setups. Once you have been to that side it hurts to come back. Same with the theory.

I'm done....

[deggy]

I really enjoy these types of discussions. I understand both sides all to well. Imagine living in house with your bandmates (a 'serious' band that made money and had experiences). In this house we had 4-8 hour jams. People would stop in and play a while, some fairly big Canadian artists would drop by after shows in town and jam and have a drink/smoke. All of this was devoid of practicing theory, and it was GREAT. I learned how to just play, and have never feared an open stage/jam night(no matter who the host(s)).
On the other hand, I studied theory and comp/arrangement. These studies only helped re-enforce all that playing (learned by ear...refined by knowledge).

Somebody earlier wrote about communication and bedroom composers. I agree on that note. What IF you were sitting on the artist side of the glass in Nashville, and the producer was flashing signals to you? What do you do when he holds up 1 finger then 4 and then all five fingers? He is communicating a progression without any words/notation...can you play it? This is an extreme example, but it has a point. The person alone in the bedroom dosnt need this, however if that person bothered to learn beyond what is in thier head they may find themselves in the fortunate position of having to know what those fingers mean.

To me alot of what is said here is based on a lack of understanding/experience (I know this is a place of learning). The argument about not using theory is one. Others include discussions on mastering, and the use of the word produce/ing/er. I am not a snob, but I feel that the void between bedroom mouse clicker and musician can be vast. Similarly is the notion that an all freeware loaded P.C. can create the equvelent sound of a 2 million $ studio. You know, folks saying that tape/tubes/hi-end consoles are bollocks (WTF!). I think it comes down to never being in/hearing those kinds of setups. Once you have been to that side it hurts to come back. Same with the theory.

I'm done....

this is soooooo Queen Street West and Bathurst

hehe

[o'malley]

They're just making excuses because they don't want to take any time or energy to learn something. They would rather just make cookie cutter dance styles that take half an hour and half a brain to make. Then they can go to all their friends and say, "Yo!! Peep dis new darktrance-deep-psycore-leftstep-herdtech-dance dance revolution!" and their friends will be like "Yo!! Dats tight yo! Dat 303-virus-909-MC 3000 beat is sick, yall!!" and then they go to the club and say "YO!! Drop dis joint yo!" Then the dj will be like "Yo, dats a tizight track yo, ALL THE LAYDEEZ.... SCREAM!!!!!" and then he'll pick up some honeys at da club, and go back to the room and overdose on love boat.


People wan't instant results. Why should they spend years learning to play music when they can just buy some loop cds and get instant attention?

Honestly though, that kind of stuff won't last. It's the people who are making music from their heart and soul that will last forever. People who just make music for money and attention aren't really making music IMO.

However, music isn't about notes and chords and how to resolve a dominant 7th chord. Theory simply gives you basic tools and skills that allow you to communicate, write down, and more easily express yourself. IMHO

[McLilith]

Out of curiosity, is my one and only piece written for the KVR Cafe "absolutely terrible stuff" as you put it?

I don't think so. Purely subjectively I like the mood that it sets down.

That's good to hear, since mood was my primary goal.

That said, you're stretching a limited amount of material quite far.

Oh, you noticed that, did you?

Remember, it takes a special talent to stretch things so thin, and still hold a listener's interest.

Organ riff, repeat, sound effect. Same organ riff, repeat, same sound effect. (When I heard that the second time I was thinking "He's made me wait quite a bit for absolutely nothing new.")

Exactly. This piece wasn't about blinding anyone with a barrage of crafty musical concepts, it was about soaking the listener in a certain mood. I was thinking "haunted" and "sound track" when I made that piece.

That said, I consider the piece unfinished. It still has lots of rough edges and plenty of "nearly empty space" to insert some interesting bits here and there. If I ever finish it, you might not feel quite so fatigued waiting for "something new" to come along.

Actually, I was also vaguely thinking of "Something Wicked This Way Comes", when I created this. There was a remark in that story about giving someone a little taste of death, so they will recognize it when it comes around again. I think that influenced the degree of repetition to some extent. The haunted organ and crescendo pattern occupy the first 40% of the piece. Then the quiet part occupies the next 40% of the piece. The last 20% reintroduces the haunted organ, just before the song "dies" violently.

Oh, your organ riff is very cool. It's not quite dodecaphonic (twelve-tone) but it comes close. In 11 notes you hit 9 different pitches, spanning a chromatic minor sixth. Ignoring a Bb passing tone, the only repeated note is the first and last, which kind of establishes a tonality. Ages ago I went through a period where I was writing atonally, and somehow hearing the same note twice in close succession offended me. Hence themes with 10 different pitches or so. Your theme is one that I could have written then.

I'd say that paragraph is a theoretical analysis of something you wrote intuitively. (Or were you aware of how that theme hit every chromatic note from G-Eb?) So theory did not help you, nor would it hinder me.

I'm glad you liked the organ riff. I thought it was both interesting and unsettling. (At least, that is the effect I wanted.)

Yes, it was hard not to notice that I had used all the notes between those two points. At the time, I was wanting to see if I could make something interesting with all those notes, but I didn't know any of the technical terms to describe what I was doing. For me, creating that piece of music was an act of exploration, not an exercise in engineering.

I know about major and minor scales, but that is pretty much the extent my knowledge of scales. I knew this was't in either of those scales, and I also knew that most pop music didn't "go there", so I wanted to "go there" and see if I could find anything interesting. That said, maybe next week, I'll visit the "Realm of Pop" or the "Land of Trance" and see if I can find anything musically interesting in those spaces (or maybe not).

Personally, I've always been a technical person. I literally took every science class my high school offered, except for organic chemistry. (Biology 1, Biology 2, Field Biology, Anatomy and Physiology, Geology, Chemisty 1, Chemsisty 2, and Physics). When "achievement tests" were taken one year, I scored somewhere in the top 2% percentile (or thereabouts) in the nation, for science subjects. I've worked for years as an electronics technician specializing in the repair of musical electronic instruments. Deep down, I would have liked to have been an electronics engineer. I have the talent, but not the money for a good school and not enough patience for a crappy school. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, a huge chunk of my personality is very technical and logical. In high school, my best friend called me "Spock" (among other things) because of my logical and honest nature.

However when it comes to my music, I don't want to remove the mystery from it. I don't want to strip the soul out of it. Some things in my life have to remain somewhat ethereal, or I lose interest in them. For me, not knowing too much theory helps keep things anchored firmly in the emotional and spiritual aspects of the music. I also like the challenge that this presents.

I know this certainly isn't a musical path for everyone. If I were expecting to be a successful studio musician, for example, I would expect to have to learn a lot more theory. If I wanted to be a player in an orchestra, I would need a lot more playing skills and a lot more theory. If I wanted to be a "classical" composer, I would absolutely need a large body of theory to draw upon, if I expected to achieve any sort of credibility in that community.

For what I want to do, my level of music theory is workable. I can truly appreciate the value of those people who know a lot about the theories behind the music, but I don't feel an urgent need to join them. The only thing which annoys me somewhat is when someone says that I'm "not a musician", like my old friend from high school once did (the same one who called me Spock). If Carnival of Fates isn't music, I really don't know what to call it. I think it's music, and since I created it, I think that makes me a musician (even if only a fledgling musician).

So, theory is fine for many people, but I don't think it has to be mandated for everyone who wants to be considered a musician.

I find theory pretty value-free. It enables you to talk about music constructively, and sometimes it helps in writing something. You definitely need to know theory to play age-appropriately. A while ago I was in a recital playing music from the 14th through 18th century, and in several cases we had to arrange / make up lines. We did discuss what sort of things were appropriate for what music.

Yes, if I were in that situation, I would expect to have to know a lot about both music theory and music history. However, there's nothing inherently wrong with creating music which doesn't demand those abilities.


take care,
McLilith

[TVD]

Alright, I feel the need to start a topic on this, because I keep running into beginners making electronic music online that all have the same opinion -- that music theory is bollocks.

Of course, I reply politely to these people that this is simply not the case, that music theory is not bollocks, that it serves a purpose, can expand your sound, and lets you really understand music. Upon this, a small flamewar usually ensues, and some heated words are exchanged from both sides.

Among the primary arguments of the people who militantly refuse to learn music theory, the most prominent one is that if they learn theory, they're going to "sound like everyone else" (you won't). A few other ones are "I can learn it better if I just teach myself." and "my shit is so experimental [read: awful] that it doesn't need music theory!" (haha). Now, I would go alot easier on these people if their music was actually worth listening to. By and large though, its absolutely terrible stuff, and its clearly evident that they had no clue what they were doing. I know this is pretty subjective territory, but still, it was plainly evident.

Anyways, it just annoys me when people are so steadfastly ignorant when it comes to trying to learn about music. Oh, and the best quote from talking to one of these people:

"Music theory is for talentless musicians!"

I reprint the opening quote to help us all get back on the subject.

Now here's my take on this issue:

You must known at least the major, minor, and blues scales by memory (with your ears of course).

And you better known all of your triad (3 notes) and 7th (4 notes) chords.

And if you can't make the time to study & practice THAT much music theory or your craft, than the only thing that you're doing with your instruments is making some f***ing noise!

[McLilith]

They're just making excuses because they don't want to take any time or energy to learn something. They would rather just make cookie cutter dance styles that take half an hour and half a brain to make. Then they can go to all their friends and say, "Yo!! Peep dis new darktrance-deep-psycore-leftstep-herdtech-dance dance revolution!" and their friends will be like "Yo!! Dats tight yo! Dat 303-virus-909-MC 3000 beat is sick, yall!!" and then they go to the club and say "YO!! Drop dis joint yo!" Then the dj will be like "Yo, dats a tizight track yo, ALL THE LAYDEEZ.... SCREAM!!!!!" and then he'll pick up some honeys at da club, and go back to the room and overdose on love boat.

You must known at least the major, minor, and blues scales by memory (with your ears of course).

And you better known all of your triad (3 notes) and 7th (4 notes) chords.

And if you can make the time to study & practice THAT much music theory or your craft, than the only thing that you're doing with your instruments is making some f***ing noise!

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes.


--

It's quite ironic, that ObiWan would utter such an "absolute" statement, isn't it?

[TVD]

And another thing:

I'm not a real musician.

Yes, I have the ability and some of the knowledge of music theory to be a composer & a producer. But I'm not a real musician.

Only the people that study, practice, & perform classical and/or jazz their whole life are THE real musicians. That's not an opinion. That is a fact!

Anyone from the jazz and classical culture can play any music gerne from around the world if they wanted to.

And I can tell you as an ear & eyewitness, that only in classical music is it very mandatory to know all of the chords & scales that exist on planet earth today!

Now think about that the very next time you work or play around with your favorite host or soft studio.

[Morgaxx]

deggy...were you ever by our place? (hehehe) You are soooooooooooooooooo close on the intersection(just a little south from queen). Was it the open stage/jammin that gave it away? That was quite awhile ago now.

These days when I'm down there all I see is non-theory using scruffs and I think "man those kids need a suit and some theory", especially the non-musicians!