Rant on music theory ignorance.

[Hovmod]

I don't know a SINGLE jazz or classical musicians doing a great job in a rock lineup - unless they "studied" that as well.
And believe me, I know a lot of them...

Zappa.

[Hink]

If you get to hung up about the thoery it can destroy your creativity, same can be said about the technical side too.

that's crap and I have 34 years of laying to show it...

Pick up a lot of groupies did you ??

Regards,

Derek.

[Hink]

I don't know a SINGLE jazz or classical musicians doing a great job in a rock lineup - unless they "studied" that as well.
And believe me, I know a lot of them...

Zappa.

yes but even the great Zappa recognized it as a weakness...that's when he turned to Steve Vai who transcribed much of Zappa's work...so techncally I believe that Zappa is a better example of what I and several other's have said. He may not of been learned in the theory but he did understand it his own way....when it came time to putting it in a universal language, he knew what he had to do.

Another interestig thing about Zappa is when he learned he had cancer his hoghest priority was about finishing his music...

[Hink]

I don't know a SINGLE jazz or classical musicians doing a great job in a rock lineup - unless they "studied" that as well.
And believe me, I know a lot of them...

I dont know if it's still the same way, but for years Berkley in Boston did not teach or allow rock as part of their courses and projects....

Here's a quick trivia question about gear (and Berkley)

Berkley used Oliver amps almost exclusively for years (as a result I sold a few used)...who here knows who or what oliver amps are?

[Hovmod]

I don't know a SINGLE jazz or classical musicians doing a great job in a rock lineup - unless they "studied" that as well.
And believe me, I know a lot of them...

Zappa.

yes but even the great Zappa recognized it as a weakness...that's when he turned to Steve Vai who transcribed much of Zappa's work...so techncally I believe that Zappa is a better example of what I and several other's have said. He may not of been learned in the theory but he did understand it his own way....when it came time to putting it in a universal language, he knew what he had to do.

Another interestig thing about Zappa is when he learned he had cancer his hoghest priority was about finishing his music...

Yeah - I just mentioned the Zappa band as a place where Jazz/Classicaly trained musicians 'worked' in a rock setting. I'm not saying he was all about theory or anything, although I'm sure he turned a lot of kids on to the more theoretical side of music. Lots of fans had to look up terms like "polyrhythm", and I'll admit I bought my first Varese and Webern recordings on his advice...

[Sascha Franck]

Zappa.

Yeah, but he studied/learned all of it.
Let's say, him and his musicians had "the guts" to play rock/funk stuff as well, an area most trained jazz musicians usually fail in miserably.

[tee boy]

I think people tend to consider 'music theory' purely as western music principles. I dont really know why, music theory imo is the workings of any music.

Sascha,
You mention that trained musicians had to learn about rock before being able to play it? Ofcourse, rock is music and has its own theoretical principles (air guitar for one!).

To be effective in any form of music you have the know the inner workings.

[Sascha Franck]

Sascha,
You mention that trained musicians had to learn about rock before being able to play it? Ofcourse, rock is music and has its own theoretical principles (air guitar for one!).

I think it's about the "attitude" that you gotta learn when doing rock (apart from a few technical things).
And hell, "air guitar" are a great example. Ever seen an "air jazz saxophone" contest? That's just nothing that'd meet any jazz attitude, so it'd most likely fail miserably.

[Hink]

you know (this is tad off topic) one thing I hate is when musicians claim to be self taught...I find that to be a misleading egotistical statement...satch comes to mind first. Imo unless you lived in a cave cut off from the world it is likely you are not self taught. I mean along the way you learn things by working with other musicians....guitarist show each other things...that's hardly self taught...I prefer the the term "self studied". Many may not have taken lessons for years on end, but that doesn't mean they are self taught at all...even if you never took a lesson. You may study other guitar players and learn from them, in fact I believe I had some great teachers...that I never met. When I hear someone say there self-taught I consider it a self serving statement.

FWIW, I took lessons at 12, stopped after about a year because I was going the Mel-Bay route and didn't like it. At 14 I returned to lessons but my mother stopped paying for them because I was getting cheated by the teacher. He was teaching me things my mother thought I would never use....the first thing he taught me was 12 bar blues and blues scales...by the end of 4 lessons I was playing "Bitch" by the Stones, before that all I learned was "Old Macdonald"...yeah she's right, he so ripped me off...

[Morgaxx]

Was Chicago a jazz band playing rock and Yes a rock band playing jazz, or was it the other way round?

Not sure how much training any of these players had, but each band did both, no?

[Hink]

Sascha,
You mention that trained musicians had to learn about rock before being able to play it? Ofcourse, rock is music and has its own theoretical principles (air guitar for one!).

I think it's about the "attitude" that you gotta learn when doing rock (apart from a few technical things).
And hell, "air guitar" are a great example. Ever seen an "air jazz saxophone" contest? That's just nothing that'd meet any jazz attitude, so it'd most likely fail miserably.

air drummers are better...where you wont find many air guitarists claiming to be guitarists I sure have seen my share of air drummers who are quick to say "I'm a drummer". But when you ask what kind of drums they have many say they dont...

[Sascha Franck]

Was Chicago a jazz band playing rock and Yes a rock band playing jazz, or was it the other way round?

Not sure how much training any of these players had, but each band did both, no?

Well, I don't think Chicago played rock, at least not exactly. To me they were a pop band´- admittedly a very sophisticated one.
Yes never played jazz at all, btw. They used some of the techniques, but there's not a hint of jazz in their music.

[Hink]

Was Chicago a jazz band playing rock and Yes a rock band playing jazz, or was it the other way round?

Not sure how much training any of these players had, but each band did both, no?

Well, I don't think Chicago played rock, at least not exactly. To me they were a pop band´- admittedly a very sophisticated one.
Yes never played jazz at all, btw. They used some of the techniques, but there's not a hint of jazz in their music.

Chicago was unique, like others....back then we were into Aerosmith, the Nuge, Sabbath, Deep Purple...Chicago was like mopeds...no matter how much you loved them you didn't always brag about it.

Another Band...Queen... Need I say more....

[Hovmod]

Was Chicago a jazz band playing rock and Yes a rock band playing jazz, or was it the other way round?

Chicago was a crap band playing crap, and Yes was a pretentious crap band playing pretentious crap.

[Hink]

Was Chicago a jazz band playing rock and Yes a rock band playing jazz, or was it the other way round?

Chicago was a crap band playing crap, and Yes was a pretentious crap band playing pretentious crap.

sounds like someone needs to hear Rick Wakeman's Journey to the center of the earth...