Muzys users look! The future is bright.

[Exit Zero]

OK folks, Muzys might be dead, but the developer is not and has promised to reappear soon with exciting new announcements.

Jo does contact me from time to time (I only know what you all already know folks, so don't pound me with questions about Muzys or what is coming.) Some time ago, he asked me what my opinion is on what could possibly be lacking in terms of the sequencer market with so many choices out there now: Live, Project 5v2, EnergyXT, FLStudio, Garageband, Cubase, Nuendo, Logic, Sonar, Samplitude, etcetera. So does it perhaps make sense to develop another sequencer-host?

So, here is my honest, professional opinion:
(And please folks, don't correct my assertions, just add your own personal views.)

Jo, you already know why we all think Muzys is a superior product:

- Stability
- Midi editing - nothing yet has come close.
- Built in sampling capabilities
- Highly intuitive workspace
- Muzynth - people are still lusting for it.

These are my top reasons for why Muzys is still competitive. There are of course many more worthy features (playroom, every param automatable, etc.) but I will leave it up to the KVRists and former "Muzycians" to point them all out.

The holy grail of major sequencer hosts is perhaps already being met by the big names, Logic, Sonar, Nuendo, Pro Tools, etc.

But where self-contained "groove" software such as Reason, FLStudio, EnergyXT, Project 5, Ableton Live and even Muzys are concerned, there is still an opportunity to develop more musically intuitive software.

First and foremost, this proposed software must be stable. Muzys was a ***very*** stable host and was a primary reason I was initially drawn to it. I only use stable software and plugins. Other software which is equally stable: Ableton Live, Energy XT and of course, Propellorhead's Reason. Stability is paramount.

Furthermore, there is definitely a market for an all-in-one music production tool which excels at:
- Intuitive music creation, production and..
- Dynamic improvisational-capable LIVE performance with rock solid stability

The only software that I believe is close to being good at BOTH tasks (production AND live performance) is Ableton Live. Energy XT also does well, but does not have built-in elastic audio and since it is in a constant state of beta development, stability can be an issue for the newest versions. Reason is also decent, but still falls far behind everyone else for live performance. Project 5 is nice to look at, but it is a CPU hog and buggy, so therefore is absolutely-not-ready for live performance. So, Ableton remains the best choice, but the midi editing is absolutely horrible. (A HUGE opportunity here...)

So my friend, it is fair to say that if you could develop a competing software to match and exceed the capabilities of Ableton Live, you would have a very large group of potential new customers. God, if you could develop a software with the sampling and midi capabilities of Muzys and combine that with the elastic audio features of Live, you would have a very interesting host indeed. Remember though, you will need to develop a new 'playroom' which exceeds the features of the last one in Muzys and also exceeds the features of the "session view" in Ableton Live.

But that is not all, Jo. You could go way beyond Ableton Live with a feature which allows for switching, or "prepping" an entire set of parameters (or a song) while the music is still playing. A software already doing this is Brainspawn 'Forte' http://www.brainspawn.com which allows for an entire "scene" to be switched via a single midi note or control message. This allows a song to be "on deck" and ready to go while the current one is playing. Ableton Live has really lost an opportunity by not already having this feature even when so many DJ's and performers have been screaming for it.

'Forte' is designed from the ground up for live performance (I'm using it now) and is extremely stable. One of it's remarkable stability features is the ability to "test" a given set of parameters by sending random midi messages over a given period of time (configurable by user - usually several hours) to see if the given set of parameters is "trustworthy" for live performance. This is called the "Rack Stress Test." I think this is very smart!

An intuitive interface is extremely important too! Ableton Live has a very easy to use interface. Muzys does too. Software must be musically inspiring to use - ***like hardware*** - or how could it possibly produce optimum results? One of the biggest reasons I was so in love with Muzys is that I could really be ***inspired*** to come up with new cool grooves and beats. Hardware aficionados who criticize computer software often point to how much more "musical" hardware is since it is designed from the ground up to be an "instrument." If you can empathize with this frustration, and you can develop a STABLE and INTUITIVE music workstation which can be trusted for live performance, you will have something that a lot of people will certainly be interested in buying!

So again Jo, the following features must be in place to become the next great "production-host-live-performance-tool":

1. Utra Stable VSTI-VST host.
2. Intuitive interface which insipres making music.
3. Superior midi editing and sequencing built for production and dynamic performance.
4. Elastic audio looping and streaming.
5. Multi-track audio recording and streaming.
6. Built-in sampling engine with beat chopping.
7. "Scene" or "set" switching.
8. "Stress" testing.

Oh yes, and don't forget the "Muzynth" or whtever you might call it now.

Again folks, please avoid correcting or criticizing my own assertions. Just tell us what you think are the features people are looking for in a software based music creation tool which also excels as a live performance tool. This feedback may become quite useful to Jo down the road.

Thanks in advance. ~Mark (aka 'Exit Zero')

[Amberience]

A lot of what you just wrote I disagree with. I honestly think that Muzys simply got superceeded by better and far superior programs - EnergyXT - but hell, what do I know, I'm just a knob-end with delusions of grandeur!

[Exit Zero]

A lot of what you just wrote I disagree with. I honestly think that Muzys simply got superceeded by better and far superior programs - EnergyXT - but hell, what do I know, I'm just a knob-end with delusions of grandeur!

I love Energy XT too! I just recently finished a tune with it and thought it turned out very nice.

But Energy Xt is not exactly, uh......... intuitive.

[Z3R0T0N1N]

i want muzys back. plain and simple.

[original flipper]

HI

Do you realise that 'your feature' list would take A DEVELOPMENT TEAM a LONG, LONG TIME to design, code and refine.

I would be surprised to see any new players in the host/sequencer market - it is an increasingly diminishing market and the time involved and personel needed make's you wonder if there would be any major profit to be had.

For my part I always thought that Native Instruments would get into the market due to their already vast range of products and experience - perhaps they know something about the market place we don't?

Besides - any host that offers the kind of audio, midi, loop/beat manipulation and bundled Synths/Fx would price it up against the big guns like Ableton, Logic, SX, Cakewalk .... blah, blah = again, who wants to fight that fight for a market share?

Don't get me wrong I love a nice host (!) as much as the next man, but I would be surprised to see anything like this in the near future - especially with the hardware market on the verge of big changes like 64bit, dual core cpu's, PCIX et al.

Flipper.

[mauseoleum]

interesting. keeping fingers crossed.

[xylyx]

For my part I always thought that Native Instruments would get into the market due to their already vast range of products and experience - perhaps they know something about the market place we don't?

In a recent Q&A in Computer Music, one of the people at NI (Stefan Schmidt?) was asked if they were going to develop a sequencer and he indicated that sequencer was a likely future development...whether they are planning to do Reason type thing or a vst host is open to debate.

On the Muzys front: I think there is still market space for a good sequencer, as I still haven't found my dream host yet, although P5v2 pushed things a step closer. The things that would need to be done to Muzys to bring it up to standard would be:

- Better GUI
- Better mixer
- Folder tracks
- Freeze
- Flexible bussing
- Acid looping
- Midi tools (a la MFX)
- Envelope based automation (to work alongside the current clip based automation)

I'll probably think of other stuff later, but this will do for now

Exit Zero: You seem very obsessed with live tools...I wonder how many sequencer users in general care about these...and how people who buy Ableton Live actually play live? To go your route with Muzys would see a lot of tools implemented that I personally wouldn't care about or want and I am curious as to how many others would feel the same way...

[pljones]

Do you realise that 'your feature' list would take A DEVELOPMENT TEAM a LONG, LONG TIME to design, code and refine.

Lots of it's already there, though.

I still stick to the "next step" goals that were in place at Muzys 3.14:

*) Mac OS X support
*) Disk streaming support

A good disk streaming algorithm that avoided infringing patents (in the US and coming soon to the EU the way things look now) that also supported time-stretching would be a wonderous thing...

Almost inherent is better audio support: treating audio as a sequence of samples, like MIDI is a sequence of events.

And hence allowing any sequence (audio or MIDI) to be triggered at any offset, just by starting playback at that point in time.

*) More (totally) flexible routing with good, intuitive, easy to use, automatable controls.

Flexibility an area where eXT and Reason, for example, score well. I don't like the UI in either... Jo's UIs always seem more compact and less frustrating. Mostly because so much can be automated.

*) More automation and more remote control

*) Support for sfz format (with any extensions MuZynth needs)

*) I'd also like a "more modern" user interface... without looking like Live, P5, eXT, WinXP, etc.

But, fundamentally, I just want Muzys back

- Freeze

I don't get what Freeze does that Mixdown Internal doesn't? Is it just some ease-of-use feature I've not missed?

Exit Zero: You seem very obsessed with live tools...I wonder how many sequencer users in general care about these...

I don't play live but the Muzys approach of making the sequencer an instrument designed for live use seems to be why I prefer it over all the others. P5v2 looks similar but I just couldn't get a feel for it the same way I did with Muzys.

[Exit Zero]

Exit Zero: You seem very obsessed with live tools...I wonder how many sequencer users in general care about these...and how people who buy Ableton Live actually play live? To go your route with Muzys would see a lot of tools implemented that I personally wouldn't care about or want and I am curious as to how many others would feel the same way...

Ha! I knew people wouldn't be able to resist my assertions. Well, that's simply what they are: MY assertions.

Yes - I'm obsessed. But is it such a stretch? I do like the fact that there still aren't a whole lot of people "performing" with thier sequencer, but this is rapidly changing and growing. Needless to say there are plenty of IDM electronica artists who take thier sequencers to the stage and I'm sure they would appreciate a new, stable, intuitive all-in-one solution for taking production ideas to the stage as well.

Take a look at LivePA artists for example:
http://www.livepa.org/board/viewforum.p ... 094e0709c9

It's only a logical assertion that production tools should facilitate live performance ethics as well eventually. It's the natural evolution imho.

I guess I should clarify that I am expressing my views from an electronica producer/performer's standpoint. More Dj's are becoming producers, and more producers' are wanting to take the stage. I'm glad that this is a fairly new phenomenon, it's nice to be a pioneer on the cusp of new musical workflows. But how long can this last as a merely underground thing? I've been watching closely and I see this trend more evident everyday.

[original flipper]

HI

You mis-qouted me!!!

Flipper.

[Exit Zero]

HI

You mis-qouted me!!!

Flipper.

Sorry, nested quotes get me confused sometimes.

It has been corrected.

[Bonteburg]

go for it Jo, you know it makes sense!

I'm with PLJones though, a lot of it is already there. I personally would be satisfied with a solid OSX-Port for starters.
I've long made the move to Logic which has disk streaming (duh) so i wouldn't need that either.
I could bounce between the apps without having to switch to an OS that's getting more dated every day...

I'm no coder but i have a feeling the lack of streaming is part of what made Muzys so stable, and i might be an easier port too... but again, i ain't no code head...

Come on Jo. pump it up, Bel--Belgium!

Marco

[flugel45]

Well, too little, too late, isn't it?

Way back when, about the time Logic announced it was going to drop its PC base, I posted at the MUzys forum that here was this tremendous opportunity for Muzys to make inroads in this market by beefing up its sequencer. I was looking for a host at the time, but was put off by the whole recording-into-ram limitation, which I pointed out would not attract many serious users. I was told don't worry, it was on the list. When I suggested it should be at the top of the list, I was more or less shouted down by others in the forum who favored adding more features to Muzynth instead. Synth first, the other stuff later, they argued. Made little sense to me, but oh well, Jo decided to go that way. (There were others who felt as I did, but we were clearly in the minority).

We all know the rest. Traction came out, made a huge splash... while Muzys went the way of Amelia Earhart.

I moved on to Sonar and wish I could say I never looked back, but it still saddens me that a very promising host app died the way it did.

No doubt I'll get flamed for this, but I know I fought for Muzys when it mattered, and then later watched the forum die slowly and painfully, as fans kept their hopes up until the last flame flickered out.

Nope. Too little, too late for me.

JD

[jens]

the first very very basic beta of eXT's sequencer appeared at Christmas 2003. At that time Muzys was already at a very powerful v3.14 for half a year and Jo was always a fast coder (between v2 and v3 was a bit more than a year) - and when was it that he announced that he withdrew into his laboratory? If he really would have continued to work on it what should it be like today?

I think it's dead...

[rogerperrin]

Okay here goes: my idea for a gui feature: The current MUZYS has 3 "windows" that can be reshuffled, but not resized, at least not to my knowledge. The chief benefit of a resizing feature, to me, would be to allow me to downsize the bottom portion, containing the mixer and synth rack, and supersize the topmost screen. I input data mostly by mousing the notes into the piano roll. By the time I magnify the horizontal key-spaces large enough to see what I'm doing, then I'm limited to about an octave or maybe 1.5 octaves on the keyboard, and I have to keep scrolling up and down to do it. And then I can't see the original chordal reference notes of a higher or lower octave.

Maybe one solution would be a monitor larger than 17", or perhaps an rf modulator and a big screen tv?

Jo, please don't take this as criticism of Muzys, because it is the only host that I ever use. Period. EVER, the only host.

YOU ROCK, DUDE!!!!

Thank you a thousand times for Muzys.

RogerPerrin