KVR Audio

AKJ · Post by **AKJ** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:22 pm

snooky wrote:the text that says "hello kitty" in the center of the display...

I must have overlooked this. to busy with sound

AKJ · Post by **AKJ** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:40 pm

on high levels. Like a 12 db boost.

Aleksey Vaneev · Post by **Aleksey Vaneev** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 6:58 pm

AKJ, what average/peak RMS was there before that 12 dB boost?

AKJ · Post by **AKJ** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:40 pm

Hi Aleksey, welcome to this thread!

well, I did not actually measure it, but like normal level recordings, ie with a little headroom to be save not to clip. but just for curiostity I made a 12 bd boost on a mastered file with a rms of about -14 db. the resulting rms was about -8. Of course, after this treatment everything sound like almost without any dynamis but still very clean. impressive!!!
I then did the same thing with elephant (medium speed, 4x oversampling). the first thing to observe was: elephant operation for the file took significantly longer. a comparison between the different elephant modes showed that AIGC-4 delivered, subjectively, better results than el-3 mode. However, I still liked buzmaxi3 better. no intention on my side to bring elephant down. actually, I still use it (and ozone)most of the time for mastering for its oversampling and dithering. but for track limiting buzmaxi is perfect: clean and light on cpu. maybe, you have a look at it and investigate how it is possible that it sounds so good even being much less cpu intensive

akj

snooky · Post by **snooky** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:38 pm

hm...Voxengo spying at Buzzaudio? don't you go decompile that 'lil pice of magic

Frippertronix · Post by **Frippertronix** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:38 pm

I'll have to try BuzzMaxi but I haven't had that much luck with his other plugs---they seem to glitch out easily in Tracktion 2 on my system.

I also love Pocket Limiter for it's thickening---a bit like Vintage Warmer in that respect, but it is true that it will distort. Nice to have the knee control.

Don't forget TubeLimit from TbT also. It is better to use if the levels are already pretty tame since it will distort easily, but with care you can get it to sound great.

jens · Post by **jens** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:45 pm

AKJ wrote:on high levels. Like a 12 db boost.

martian · Post by **martian** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:47 pm

i dont think buzmaxi3 can touch elephant personally. it may sound more transparent at extreme settings but what it does to achieve that seems horrible.

over here, it screws with the highs, turning them down. it may be transparent distortion wise, but it messes up the microdynamics in my tracks, creating a kind of thin tight sound.

im testing on dnb btw (170bpm).

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:09 am

f**k me! 12dB of limiting

Jesus, no wonder some of you are getting colouration and distortion. Anyone ever heard of compression around here? When I say transparent at soft knee setting, I mean at 3-4 dB. At reasonable settings I still maintain Pocket Limiter is cleaner. At 12dB limiting, who cares. I would never go anywhere near that level.
I wouldn't personally go over 6dB, and that's rare.

I often poo-poo the standard anti-"louder is better" arguments, because they spout too much dogma (which is often out of a book, not personal experience.
But seriously, do many people honestly use limiters in such a way? I'm genuinely interested and horrified.

I might have alot of compression on the end product, and I usually aim for an RMS of anywhere between -16 and -12 (although recently I've been happy with -14 as a rough maximum. I use a limiter to stop clips and also squeeze a few dBs extra...I'll commonly have between 2.5-3 dB limiting going on...on extreme occasions I'll boost it up to 6dB, but I never ever go higher than that (don't see any need to).
So is this 12dB (or close to it) a common practice for anyone here? No bullshit...what are everyones' genuine figures for RMSs and dB limiting regularly used. I've shown you mine, now let me see yours

bmanic · Post by **bmanic** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:33 am

I quite often use Elephant 2 to get a RMS peak level of about -10dBFS and no, I'm not insane..

I also have yet to find a better limiter than Elephant. It has a definate character of it's own but I happen to like that character very much. The EL-3 mode is simply stunning.

Cheers!
bManic

Aleksey Vaneev · Post by **Aleksey Vaneev** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:43 am

AKJ, OK... But 'transparent' limiters are not usually suitable for extreme gain boosts - they will tend to pump on such settings (however, EL-3 has got a release shape for that situation). You may reach for waveshapers or something like that - i.e. more 'instant' compressors (even though they color the sound much).

snooky, I'm not sure what do you mean by 'spying'. Does this mean I can't download this freeware plug-in and perform some testing and come to some conclusions?

My conclusions are: BuzMaxi3 is not anywhere more transparent than Elephant - with Elephant you can achieve much more transparency (this is measured with my personal transfer function test). What BuzMaxi3 seemingly wins at is release decay. Its performance is likewise arguable - with Elephant's EL-3 you may usually achieve better results - even if not instantly. I'm not talking about 12 dB boosts over -14 dB RMS tracks, because that's an insane benchmark.

AKJ · Post by **AKJ** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:54 am

I did not mean that I regularly do 12bd boosts, actually I hardly do it, and my track was meant not stay like this at -14db. this was just a test drive to see how it sounds when put to the extreme. when I do boosts like this, it is usually with tracks with some peaks shooting up to unusual levels (like normal praks at -6bd and some near clipping) so that I can make it lounder without clipping at these peaks. I do not find that an unusual practice.

akj

cymatics · Post by **cymatics** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:58 am

AKJ wrote:when I do boosts like this, it is usually with tracks with some peaks shooting up to unusual levels (like normal praks at -6bd and some near clipping) so that I can make it lounder without clipping at these peaks. I do not find that an unusual practice.

I believe you when you say that this is not an unusual practice. Sadly though, it is poor technique. You may want to read up on gain-staging in the digital domain.

Here's a thread from Gearslutz that you may find helpful

- jon

AKJ · Post by **AKJ** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:54 am

I do not know why you think this will be instructive for me. I do not insert any effect and never, never a limiter to the master bus not do I maipulate volumes there (only for the final mix). I am talking about individual tracks. and I do not see any better way than to record a vocal track than to adjust its input so that, in any case (ie even sudden pops), it's save from clipping. as mentioned also in the thread you quoted with 24bit it's not a problem to record with lots of headroom. but in some recordings you have these nasty pop noises. so before finally tameing them (I usually do manual cuts with a wave editor) I want to adjust the vol of this track. the quickest an easiest way is to use a limiter. and here, I prefer those which do not color the sound...

cymatics · Post by **cymatics** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:01 pm

You're proving my point. The concept of gain staging with regard to full scale digital applies to an individual track as well. If you are having "nasty pop noises" you need to turn down the output of your analog source so you do not clip digitally.

You may find that your recordings benefit by observing a prudent amount of headroom before apporoaching full scale digital (without the use of a limiter). If you don't have to commit to the sound of a limiter on your recorded tracks you have more options available at mixdown!

Of course if this technique works for you, then by all means continue. It's just a suggestion.

- jon

BuzMaxi3 Limiter - The only really transparent one I tested