trying to relaunch into the full sequencer market is imho pure folly. live5, project 5v2 and cakewalk hs are just some of the recent update competitors.
i'd concetrate on a niche market. for example i think there is currently a huge opportunity to exploit all the interest in trance gates and arpegiators.
there is currently no device which is recognised as the market leader in this area. in fact the pickings are very slim.
hopefully such a product could heavily lean on already completed sequencing code.
Muzys users look! The future is bright.
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- KVRAF
- 1530 posts since 20 Feb, 2003
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- KVRAF
- 4822 posts since 14 Mar, 2002 from Somewhere else, on principle
Let it die in peace...
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
Is there are market for another sequencer, that would work a lot like the others (minor differences yada yada)? It's great and all that 100 of the devout are still holding the flame for softwares past, but anybody here who needs yet another sequencer, please raise your hand.
There were things I liked about Muzys, but I just think similar applications from that time have moved beyond it (Tracktion, eXT). The app would have to be different, not filling the same niche role that Muzys did, else no one but the lemmings will want to pin their hopes on another project primed for abandonment.
Exit Zero's list is indicative of something that plagues a lot of applications - feature bloat. Do everything, more more more.
Look at Live. They had a good thing going, and then everyone kept badgering them about DAW this and MIDI editing that. Two more versions and it'll be the same as Logic, Cubase, Sonar. The people who buy Live, do they really want it to be Cubase? It worries me a little if they do. I would like to see something that does one (fairly sizeable) task blindingly well. If it has to be a sequencer, something that offers a thoroughly extensive way of sequencing MIDI and nothing else, and that only gets better at doing its task.
If you raised your hand earlier, ask yourself if you really even want the "perfect host." Clearly you like acquiring new software, why would you want it to all be the same, and why would you even ask for something that might interfere with your acquisition of new software?
There's always room for good, efficient and innovative products in the market, even if success isn't guaranteed. But those products surprise you, and are hard to predict.
I wish Jo good luck with whatever he chooses.
Cheers,
Steve
There were things I liked about Muzys, but I just think similar applications from that time have moved beyond it (Tracktion, eXT). The app would have to be different, not filling the same niche role that Muzys did, else no one but the lemmings will want to pin their hopes on another project primed for abandonment.
Exit Zero's list is indicative of something that plagues a lot of applications - feature bloat. Do everything, more more more.
Look at Live. They had a good thing going, and then everyone kept badgering them about DAW this and MIDI editing that. Two more versions and it'll be the same as Logic, Cubase, Sonar. The people who buy Live, do they really want it to be Cubase? It worries me a little if they do. I would like to see something that does one (fairly sizeable) task blindingly well. If it has to be a sequencer, something that offers a thoroughly extensive way of sequencing MIDI and nothing else, and that only gets better at doing its task.
If you raised your hand earlier, ask yourself if you really even want the "perfect host." Clearly you like acquiring new software, why would you want it to all be the same, and why would you even ask for something that might interfere with your acquisition of new software?
There's always room for good, efficient and innovative products in the market, even if success isn't guaranteed. But those products surprise you, and are hard to predict.
I wish Jo good luck with whatever he chooses.
Cheers,
Steve
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- KVRian
- 665 posts since 7 Jan, 2003 from somewhere between 50 and 60Hz
i don't wanna go back to the dark place 
Sorry Jo, I've well and truly moved on and will never go back to Muzys or whatever Muzys becomes. We were promised certain important features, and then suddenly you announced you were stopping development. I, like many others, only stuck with Muzys because we were counting on these features. Muzys could have been *the* perfect host. Sure, it has a great workflow etc, but there are some big holes in it's feature list (no disk streaming of samples? yikes! only 16 tracks in the mixer? yikes!)
my 2c
Sorry Jo, I've well and truly moved on and will never go back to Muzys or whatever Muzys becomes. We were promised certain important features, and then suddenly you announced you were stopping development. I, like many others, only stuck with Muzys because we were counting on these features. Muzys could have been *the* perfect host. Sure, it has a great workflow etc, but there are some big holes in it's feature list (no disk streaming of samples? yikes! only 16 tracks in the mixer? yikes!)
my 2c
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Their top guy said in the current issue of Computer Music that they are going to bring out a sequencer at some point in the future.original flipper wrote: For my part I always thought that Native Instruments would get into the market due to their already vast range of products and experience - perhaps they know something about the market place we don't? Flipper.
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- Banned
- 237 posts since 7 Oct, 2004
Interesting point.shamann wrote:Exit Zero's list is indicative of something that plagues a lot of applications - feature bloat. Do everything, more more more.
Look at Live. They had a good thing going, and then everyone kept badgering them about DAW this and MIDI editing that. Two more versions and it'll be the same as Logic, Cubase, Sonar. The people who buy Live, do they really want it to be Cubase? It worries me a little if they do. I would like to see something that does one (fairly sizeable) task blindingly well. If it has to be a sequencer, something that offers a thoroughly extensive way of sequencing MIDI and nothing else, and that only gets better at doing its task.
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- Banned
- 12367 posts since 30 Apr, 2002 from i might peeramid
apologies for my ignorance, ive ~5 mins experience with ('computer') muzys, and prolly talkin out my ass from general ignorace anyway -
dunno what t deal is but itd be GREAT to have a FREE, DOWNLOADABLE host like muzys for beginners.. seemed SIMPLE so that people can use it even if they cant read much (sorry, that does happen, you can laugh) yet powerful enuff that i can confidently recommend it w/o feelin like i handed someone a weeble
dunno what t deal is but itd be GREAT to have a FREE, DOWNLOADABLE host like muzys for beginners.. seemed SIMPLE so that people can use it even if they cant read much (sorry, that does happen, you can laugh) yet powerful enuff that i can confidently recommend it w/o feelin like i handed someone a weeble
you come and go, you come and go. amitabha neither a follower nor a leader be tagore "where roads are made i lose my way" where there is certainty, consideration is absent.
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- KVRAF
- 4143 posts since 7 Sep, 2001 from Melbourne, Australia
Hmmmm. Interesting topic.
I thought Muzys was superior in so many ways to other sequencers in the similar price bracket.
I'm using EnergyXT at the moment and I really like it, but it is a pale comparison to Muzys in terms of midi editing (in my opinion). The only products I've seen on par or above Muzys in terms of midi editing are packages like Cubase and Logic etc. You just won't find the same power in the lower price ranges, although they all have their own nifty tricks for sure.
On the other hand, tools like EnergyXT are moving forward at a furious rate in Muzys' absence. In a market that's hard to keep up with, Muzys certainly forfeited some of its advantages to its competitors when it had really done alot of the hard miles already. Basically it would have to do the hard miles again.
MuZynth was a bloody impressive integrated synth/sampler engine that blitzed alot of included "generators" in other hosts. It was simply magnificent. I actually think it's a great candidate for separate development and release as a VSTi if that were possible. I'd most likely buy it.
To go forward, I think the new "Muzys" would need to retain some of it's strengths:
- Midi editing
- Midi/Audio multi-port, multi-channel handling
- Stability
- VSTi/fx compatibility
- Great live/interactive features (which still had a bit more to go)
- MuZynth
- Integrated sample editor
and then add some more features which just need to be there I think for the product to be a real contender again:
- Disk streaming recording and playback
- Midi VST compatibility
- Some mixer improvements (possibility of floating mixer for example)
- Continued improvements in the interactive/live arena (this baby could be more an instrument rather than a sequencer with the right touches)
- Mac OSX support
I would like more things of course, but some of the things I want aren't added by any other developer anyway so I don't submit them for consideration in this post.
One of the best things I found about Muzys was actually Jo himself - the nicest guy. Someone I'd like to buy a drink for if I were ever in his home town. I would support his re-entry into the world of sequencers in a heartbeat if it meant re-establishing the communication I previously enjoyed with him.
Caleb
I thought Muzys was superior in so many ways to other sequencers in the similar price bracket.
I'm using EnergyXT at the moment and I really like it, but it is a pale comparison to Muzys in terms of midi editing (in my opinion). The only products I've seen on par or above Muzys in terms of midi editing are packages like Cubase and Logic etc. You just won't find the same power in the lower price ranges, although they all have their own nifty tricks for sure.
On the other hand, tools like EnergyXT are moving forward at a furious rate in Muzys' absence. In a market that's hard to keep up with, Muzys certainly forfeited some of its advantages to its competitors when it had really done alot of the hard miles already. Basically it would have to do the hard miles again.
MuZynth was a bloody impressive integrated synth/sampler engine that blitzed alot of included "generators" in other hosts. It was simply magnificent. I actually think it's a great candidate for separate development and release as a VSTi if that were possible. I'd most likely buy it.
To go forward, I think the new "Muzys" would need to retain some of it's strengths:
- Midi editing
- Midi/Audio multi-port, multi-channel handling
- Stability
- VSTi/fx compatibility
- Great live/interactive features (which still had a bit more to go)
- MuZynth
- Integrated sample editor
and then add some more features which just need to be there I think for the product to be a real contender again:
- Disk streaming recording and playback
- Midi VST compatibility
- Some mixer improvements (possibility of floating mixer for example)
- Continued improvements in the interactive/live arena (this baby could be more an instrument rather than a sequencer with the right touches)
- Mac OSX support
I would like more things of course, but some of the things I want aren't added by any other developer anyway so I don't submit them for consideration in this post.
One of the best things I found about Muzys was actually Jo himself - the nicest guy. Someone I'd like to buy a drink for if I were ever in his home town. I would support his re-entry into the world of sequencers in a heartbeat if it meant re-establishing the communication I previously enjoyed with him.
Caleb
Last edited by Caleb on Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Happiness is the hidden behind the obvious.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Sorry but I disagree with your assessment there Steve. (are you a Live user yourself?)shamann wrote:Look at Live. They had a good thing going, and then everyone kept badgering them about DAW this and MIDI editing that. Two more versions and it'll be the same as Logic, Cubase, Sonar.
It concerned me - as it does you - that following on from Live 4 Ableton would keep adding stuff just like Steinberg do, and that Live would become more bloated. I need not have been concerned, and if you are a Live user, you need not be concerned.
Live 4 was a sizeable move forward, and there were - to my mind anyway - some problems with the MIDI implentation, CPU, etc. Hardly surprising because it was a "revolutionary" rather than "evolutionary" update, and arguably Ableton should have spent just a little longer on it
.Live 5 is simply an astounding move forward. For two reasons:
1) it solves at a stroke all the issues some had with Live 4, and genuinely turns Live into a DAW that for some of us meets all our needs in one phenomenal program...
...and, wait for it...
2) Live 5 is actually (in my opinion) EASIER to use and feels less bloated than Live 4. I think the reason for this is that many of the improvements in version 5 (and especially loads of "small" things they didn't even announce in the publicity blurb) are there specifically to aid workflow.
Improvements such as being able to hear MIDI notes as you enter them, having far more quantise options (but all a simple single mouse click away), being able to freeze tracks with a single mouse click rather than bouncing to audio all the time, the better and quicker to use browser system, ability to save multiple devices as a single instantly accessible patch ... these things have simply made Ableton Live a far more easily useable sequencer in so many ways.
If you've not yet tried it yourself, make a point of doing so as soon as the beta goes totally public (within the next few days). I think that many people are going to be astounded
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- KVRian
- 1214 posts since 2 Jun, 2004 from Québec, CANADA
yes yes yes and yes, it is worth trying, maybe it is difficult, but no host currently is the end of all hosts....Exit Zero wrote: So does it perhaps make sense to develop another sequencer-host?
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- KVRian
- 1214 posts since 2 Jun, 2004 from Québec, CANADA
I do, and computer based setups still have things to learn about live-friendly features...xylyx wrote: Exit Zero: You seem very obsessed with live tools...I wonder how many sequencer users in general care about these...
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- KVRAF
- 2323 posts since 4 Mar, 2004 from Portugal (Lagos)
I was a Muzys user for a long time, but recently I bought eXT, which is nice. Now give me a Muzys version with audio (hard disk) recording and editing capabilities and I'll come back running to it. I don't want/need a host with all those bells & whistles people mention. Of course some polishing on the interface would be nice too .
On the other side it's a bit too late for these questions, isn't it? According to early promises Jo was suposed to be already showing something new by now
...
. On the other side it's a bit too late for these questions, isn't it? According to early promises Jo was suposed to be already showing something new by now
...Eventually something intelligent will appear written here. Watch this space.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 278 posts since 19 Nov, 2002 from Bloomington, Indiana USA
My thoughts excactly. A "genius" if you ask me. Whatever he puts out now, I will be extremely anxious to try.Caleb wrote: One of the best things I found about Muzys was actually Jo himself - the nicest guy. Someone I'd like to buy a drink for if I were ever in his home town. I would support his re-entry into the world of sequencers in a heartbeat if it meant re-establishing the communication I previously enjoyed with him.
Caleb
But could I reiterate something really important that is just really missing from all other products?
I need to be inspired to make music. I have for example an EMU Command Station (XL7) which has a very inspiring interface for making music. If you've ever played with one you'd understand how it really is built from the ground up for making composition a very fun excercise. While Muzys' interface still needs work, it was for me very, very sensible and inspiring. And hey folks, let's not forget - skinable.
Yeah, had to make the move from Logic too, and thankfully so, it's not exactly an inspiring sequencer. When I first started making some tunes with Muzys, I literally on several occasions was laughing out loud because so many musical ideas were flowing, and so easily.
Muzys was primiraly geared toward making electronic music, and I still think that is the audience it should cater to. Multi track recorders/sequencers are definetly not something to compete against, and maybe Ableton Live should be counted in that grouping at this point. But Project 5? Cmon. It's just a CPU pig, plain and simple. Muzys had so much CPU headroom it was unbelievable! I could create very dense arrangements without rendering and no other host, except for maybe Energy XT comes close, especially LIVE.
~Exit Zero
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- KVRAF
- 2874 posts since 22 Oct, 2002 from "somewhere between digital and analog"
I'm just saying NO... to anything new these days! 
If I hadn't spent the time I have, on every new sequencer that's come along the last 3 years, I'd be an expert on the one I'm currently using... and have a lot more music done... I'm using Logic, good, bad, features, no features... updates, whatever! ...and getting off the merry-go-round
I use about 5 synths too... More sounds than I can use in a lifetime! YMMV!
If I hadn't spent the time I have, on every new sequencer that's come along the last 3 years, I'd be an expert on the one I'm currently using... and have a lot more music done... I'm using Logic, good, bad, features, no features... updates, whatever! ...and getting off the merry-go-round I use about 5 synths too... More sounds than I can use in a lifetime! YMMV!
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- KVRAF
- 4143 posts since 7 Sep, 2001 from Melbourne, Australia
I agree with this wholeheartedly. My most productive musical tool ever.Exit Zero wrote:But could I reiterate something really important that is just really missing from all other products?
I need to be inspired to make music. I have for example an EMU Command Station (XL7) which has a very inspiring interface for making music. If you've ever played with one you'd understand how it really is built from the ground up for making composition a very fun excercise. While Muzys' interface still needs work, it was for me very, very sensible and inspiring. And hey folks, let's not forget - skinable.
Yeah, had to make the move from Logic too, and thankfully so, it's not exactly an inspiring sequencer. When I first started making some tunes with Muzys, I literally on several occasions was laughing out loud because so many musical ideas were flowing, and so easily.
Don't agree with this though.Muzys was primiraly geared toward making electronic music, and I still think that is the audience it should cater to.
I'm more a pop music person myself, and I still found Muzys to be the best. I didn't feel like I was excluded from Muzys just because I wasn't working on dance music.
In fact I always found with Muzys that it was a very good blend of Cubase-style sequencer with Orion/Fruity etc. soft-studio.
So I would definitely like to see the streaming audio in particular make its way into whatever product comes out. If it doesn't though, I can content myself with EnergyXT VSTi as a plug-in for audio streaming I suppose.
Caleb
Happiness is the hidden behind the obvious.