the analog warmth myth

[Kingston]

DevonB,

The difference between, for example, 32bit cubase internal render and the same thing but with all the tracks sent separately to the RME internal mixer (summed there with something like 80bit resolution) can be heard. I think that's what jmh is talking about.



To erase any confusion, I completely and thorougly hear and love the 'analog behaviour' but refuse to call it warmth. I vouch for the accumulating if not multiplying increase of quality when using lots of the subtle solidstate/valve based gadgets. I also love anything good sounding digital.





I had a bit of a revelation after reading xanders post.

I know the designers of analog things tune and measure their work by ear. They also have few generations (near 100 years already) of accumulated knowledge of it. Yet it's still somewhat a black art. We can define what sounds good only to a point.

Now this doesn't quite apply to digital developing. It feels a heavily market driven strive for the mythical analog warmth. Average joe (which applies to most of kvr) can still be deceived by pretty UI and buzz. Why else would we have all these halfhearted plugs littering around? This even applies to the prestiguous sonalksis (as an example) somewhat: they are doing their best to emulate analog parts, still not fully going for the golden sound. They stumble because of their customer.

Maybe someday digital developers will stop trying to emulate, and head straight for the gold? Stop trying to clone or emulate and make things sound good.

(fortunate few developers follow this paradigm on the odd few days of the week, you know who you are)

[mauseoleum]

isn't totalmix 40bit?

[Kingston]

hence the 'something like'. And god knows whether that's integers or float, which complicates things.

[cptgone]

Topic: the anal log warmth myth

what do you mean, myth? I fondle the moist warmth of my turds...

[mauseoleum]

http://smellypoop.com/

the real deal ...

[DevonB]

DevonB,

The difference between, for example, 32bit cubase internal render and the same thing but with all the tracks sent separately to the RME internal mixer (summed there with something like 80bit resolution) can be heard. I think that's what jmh is talking about.

I've never had an RME card, so I'm curious. I'm assuming you're recording real time in this method and not export as audio?

Devon

[Meffy]

[To the tune of "Panama Red" by the New Riders of the Purple Sage]

Analog Warmth,
Analog Warmth...
He'll blow your woofers
With his cool waveformth!

Analog Warmth,
Analog Warmth,
On his big black Moog Modular
He comes freezin' your track.

Bet your woman's gonna morph
With ol'... Analog Warmth!

[jmh]

DevonB,

The difference between, for example, 32bit cubase internal render and the same thing but with all the tracks sent separately to the RME internal mixer (summed there with something like 80bit resolution) can be heard. I think that's what jmh is talking about.

I've never had an RME card, so I'm curious. I'm assuming you're recording real time in this method and not export as audio?

Devon

Yes to both. Comparing a host's direct output to a stereo out on a RME card, with sending each track to a separate output on the card, summed together inside the card. The output of the card in each case gets recorded so that ABX testing can be done.

I know, to most people this sounds completely whack. But what can I say... one learns to hear minute details along the way if one is interested.

My point in mentioning something like this is just to inform that there are really "unimportant" minute details that can be heard.

I still don't believe in Tori Amos' ability to listen to audio recorded on a CD-R and identify different medias, and whether the computer is placed on a different location and material... since it defys pretty much every bit of logic associated with digital recording. Had the story been that she can notice a difference between DACs on different devices, that would at least make some sense =)

When it comes to analogue... frankly, it is kind of pointless to repeatedly say what "we" have been saying - people who can hear a difference exist, hence a difference exists regarding this matter on forums such as KVR... but it's even more pointless for all the damn "my first SE synth sounds like Synth X I'm emulating, you cannot differentiate it from the real deal in a mix, and besides, the average listener won't hear the difference, and better gear don't result in bettter songs" idiots to spew their flawed, uninformed opinions on matters they've not familiar with, as some kind of absolute truths on this matter. If they at least learned to see which of their points are even related to the discussion... that's a bit too much ask, I know

Regards,

JMH

[mark77]

Man, twelve pages and still going.. if nothing else, this post proves that mastering , and all this analog thing is close to people's hearts, one way or another. This leaves me thinking.. if people only ever made music on the best of the best most expensive sweetest sounding equipment, then probably half of all genres of music wouldnt exsist. quick examples.. drum n bass and big beat anyone? how about dub?

[jmh]

I'll give you this, you've got the knack for weird "questions" based on the wildest of assumptions

I'm not even going to touch that, my head is still firmly on the "analog warmth myth" issue

JMH

[Steven West]

Oooooohm, Sweet Oooooohm. Oooooohm, Sweet Oooooohm. Oooooohm, Sweet Oooooohm. Oooooohm, Sweet Oooooohm....

Ralf, why don't we get a Con Brio synth or a McLevier? Oh shut up Florian! You know how much money we blew on those mannequins and neon name signs! Now just thread the tape so we can get this stupid song over with!...
Yes Ralf.

Now THATS Analog Warmth!

[AndrewSimon]

OK here is a real life story.
When I was a kid (in the 70's) I used to hang around real studios just wondering at all the toys I could never have. I usually wasn't allowed to be around for the real sessions but I was there for the demo tape artists and at downtime helping out with whatever (mainly making coffee and cleaning up)

One day one of the guest sound engineer put a pack of cigarettes on top of the studio monitor.
Soon a debate started about "does it effect the sound?"

The house engineer said "sure everything has an impact".
A few arguments later a bet was made and the blindfolded house engineer was put to the task of pointing out on top of which monitor the pack of cigarettes were.
To everybody's amazement he pointed to the correct one every time.

Now this guy practically lived in this studio for his entire adult life and he of course used material he was very familiar with, he also did a few test runs with no cigarettes on the speakers before every real test but still it was an amazing thing.

So to conclude
"Yes everything has an impact on sound"
But he was probably the only person in the world that could tell the difference.
Still it was very important to him.


I think this debate is more about money then anything else.
If all these plugs were free there would have been no debate here just a vote for your preferred plug.
My guess is that most of the "expensive analog warmth" plugs would have made it to the top of the list.

[Feltch Academy]

I own some (real) analogue synths (eg JP8, PRO5 SYSTEM100 etc)
I’m not a purist and I can say that if my computer could get even remotely close to offering the same quality and richness of sounds I would not own them. I would use my PC instead. (same goes for MAC if any of you are MAC snobs).
One day in the distant future my computer may be able to accurately model my JP8. But today, softsynths (even the cool ones like absysnth) get their asses totally and utterly blown away in comparison. and that goes for outboard too. And mixing desks. So there.

[Meffy]

the blindfolded house engineer

I can do essentially the same thing, and have amazed small audiences with my apparently impossible abilities at similar tasks. For me to do this, you wouldn't even have to play anything through the speakers. :-}

Thought exercise: What simple changes to the setup would make it impossible for me (and the house engineer) to achieve this seemingly mystical feat? Hint: "every time" is a strong clue.

[cptgone]

the blindfolded house engineer

I can do essentially the same thing, and have amazed small audiences with my apparently impossible abilities at similar tasks. For me to do this, you wouldn't even have to play anything through the speakers. :-}

Aw man, are you a skunk or a bat?