I've just bought myself a laptop with the intention of using it for audio creation/manipulation.
Originally I had intended to get n-track because of it's bang-for-buck and low CPU usage. It also supports VST, rewire, blah blah blah.
I am primarily doing sound design, noisescapes, experimental stuff so flexibility and potential for sonic mayhem is a must. Also the ability for real-time manipulation of audio input (and recording the result straight to disc).
However after browsing this forum I've also included the following hosts to check out:
Energy XT
audiomulch
bidule
pure data
Do they do different enough functions to warrant getting all four, or are they 'stepping on each other's toes'? Overkill?
newbie looking for hosts for experimental use.
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- KVRist
- 73 posts since 2 Jul, 2005 from Sydney
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 May, 2003 from Mostly in NSW Central Tablelands, Australia
That looks like a good starting list. I'm not familiar with Pure Data, so can't comment on that. I use Plogue Bidule, and have fairly briefly tried Audiomulch and Energy XT. People familiar with the latter two may shoot me down in flames, but IMO opinion there is some overlap between these three at least.
With Audiomulch, the thing to be aware of is that Ross Bencina seems to have some philosophical opposition to MIDI-based sequencing, though MIDI continuous controllers are OK. So I never figured out how to use VSTi soft synths in Audiomulch, which pretty much ruled it out for me. But, as its name implies, its strength is in audio mangling. I know people who perform with it, and really like it. One feature that I'm pretty sure it has that Bidule doesn't and Energy XT may not is the concept of a timeline. I think this is essentially used to contain parameter envelopes that can affect all the modular things that you've wired together.
Bidule does support MIDI note on/off messages as well as the various controller messages, but though it's my favourite of the bunch I have to admit that it doesn't have very good step sequencers, so if you want to include sequenced elements you'll need to hook in something else, such as ERA, Stepchild, or even host the VST versions of EnergyXT or FruityLoops. If you are more interested in sound mangling than sequencing, this won't be an issue. Bidule also has Rewire support, dunno about the others.
I haven't looked at EnergyXT in detail, partly because the default UI I find even more formidible than Bidule (and I am a technical geek), and partly because I simply got into Bidule first. It looks pretty decent, does have good appegiation/step sequencing facilities if you like that sort of thing. I, personally, don't find its wiring scheme as useable as Bidules, and I haven't explored it enough to see if it has all the primitive components that Bidule has.
So, while I can't give a comprehensive overview of each, I hope that helps give you some ideas of what to look for.
With Audiomulch, the thing to be aware of is that Ross Bencina seems to have some philosophical opposition to MIDI-based sequencing, though MIDI continuous controllers are OK. So I never figured out how to use VSTi soft synths in Audiomulch, which pretty much ruled it out for me. But, as its name implies, its strength is in audio mangling. I know people who perform with it, and really like it. One feature that I'm pretty sure it has that Bidule doesn't and Energy XT may not is the concept of a timeline. I think this is essentially used to contain parameter envelopes that can affect all the modular things that you've wired together.
Bidule does support MIDI note on/off messages as well as the various controller messages, but though it's my favourite of the bunch I have to admit that it doesn't have very good step sequencers, so if you want to include sequenced elements you'll need to hook in something else, such as ERA, Stepchild, or even host the VST versions of EnergyXT or FruityLoops. If you are more interested in sound mangling than sequencing, this won't be an issue. Bidule also has Rewire support, dunno about the others.
I haven't looked at EnergyXT in detail, partly because the default UI I find even more formidible than Bidule (and I am a technical geek), and partly because I simply got into Bidule first. It looks pretty decent, does have good appegiation/step sequencing facilities if you like that sort of thing. I, personally, don't find its wiring scheme as useable as Bidules, and I haven't explored it enough to see if it has all the primitive components that Bidule has.
So, while I can't give a comprehensive overview of each, I hope that helps give you some ideas of what to look for.
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
Yes, or no. Maybe.
I have all four installed at the moment, all overlap in some ways, differ in others.
I'm partial to Audiomulch. It's the first thing I open when going to make music. All of my SIGHUP stuff is made with it.
Some differences:
Mulch is a high level modular synthesis/audio tool. It has sound generators, filters, and effects of its own which are easily modulated, but are fixed (meaning you can't change how they function). It is the only one that has linear automation envelopes for use in a modular environment. It has aa great VST implementation, really good handling of plugin crashes, great interface.
PD is a low level modular. Very low level, functions as a programming environment. It is the most difficult on the surface, so plan on taking some time to learn it. It doesn't host plugins as far as I know, but patches can be wrapped as plugins with pdvst to use in other hosts.
Bidule is sort of a cross between Mulch and PD. It has both high and low level modules, it has explicit MIDI paths and MIDI processing (mulch does not). It has FFT and iFFT functions (Mulch does not). Low level also means logic functions, building blocks for your own processors, etc. It is the only one of the four with Rewire functionality. It also comes with a VST bridge that lets you route in from another host and back.
EnergyXT is the only that runs as both a standalone and VST. I like to think it puts the Bidule in Mulch, as it allows explicit MIDI routing, so takes up the slack for Mulch on MIDI processing. Other than its sampler, eXT has no sound modules. It also is the only one that has traditional, piano-roll style MIDI sequencing.
Two others to consider:
Synthedit: for building plugins (sound generators, logic gates, midi processors, filters, etc) that take advantage of modular environments. Synthedit is also a VST host.
Synthmaker: similar function to Synthedit, but designed to be less like a synthesizer and more like a visual programming environemnt.
Max/MSP and Reaktor are also good modular options, but both are very expensive and so will have to be recommended by someone other than me.
I would certainly try Mulch, Bidule, PD, eXT and Synthedit out. All are either free, or free to use with limitations (3-months for every new version of Mulch and Bidule, PD is free and open source, SE is free to use with minor limitations, eXT is free to use but can't load patches unless registered.) Those that require registration are fairly inexpensive.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Steve
I have all four installed at the moment, all overlap in some ways, differ in others.
I'm partial to Audiomulch. It's the first thing I open when going to make music. All of my SIGHUP stuff is made with it.
Some differences:
Mulch is a high level modular synthesis/audio tool. It has sound generators, filters, and effects of its own which are easily modulated, but are fixed (meaning you can't change how they function). It is the only one that has linear automation envelopes for use in a modular environment. It has aa great VST implementation, really good handling of plugin crashes, great interface.
PD is a low level modular. Very low level, functions as a programming environment. It is the most difficult on the surface, so plan on taking some time to learn it. It doesn't host plugins as far as I know, but patches can be wrapped as plugins with pdvst to use in other hosts.
Bidule is sort of a cross between Mulch and PD. It has both high and low level modules, it has explicit MIDI paths and MIDI processing (mulch does not). It has FFT and iFFT functions (Mulch does not). Low level also means logic functions, building blocks for your own processors, etc. It is the only one of the four with Rewire functionality. It also comes with a VST bridge that lets you route in from another host and back.
EnergyXT is the only that runs as both a standalone and VST. I like to think it puts the Bidule in Mulch, as it allows explicit MIDI routing, so takes up the slack for Mulch on MIDI processing. Other than its sampler, eXT has no sound modules. It also is the only one that has traditional, piano-roll style MIDI sequencing.
Two others to consider:
Synthedit: for building plugins (sound generators, logic gates, midi processors, filters, etc) that take advantage of modular environments. Synthedit is also a VST host.
Synthmaker: similar function to Synthedit, but designed to be less like a synthesizer and more like a visual programming environemnt.
Max/MSP and Reaktor are also good modular options, but both are very expensive and so will have to be recommended by someone other than me.
I would certainly try Mulch, Bidule, PD, eXT and Synthedit out. All are either free, or free to use with limitations (3-months for every new version of Mulch and Bidule, PD is free and open source, SE is free to use with minor limitations, eXT is free to use but can't load patches unless registered.) Those that require registration are fairly inexpensive.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Steve
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- KVRAF
- 2135 posts since 12 Jul, 2004 from Brave New World
I've found that Buzz is pretty f**king intense for experimental use. doesn't support live audio input, though.
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together...." -Carl Zwanzig
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- KVRAF
- 4143 posts since 7 Sep, 2001 from Melbourne, Australia
Have a look at Delta SP and Console as well. I believe they both have some capabilities in this area, although I've never used either.
I guess which one to get depends on precisely how you imagine you should produce experimental music. I'm sure they are all capable in their own way.
Caleb
I guess which one to get depends on precisely how you imagine you should produce experimental music. I'm sure they are all capable in their own way.
Caleb
Happiness is the hidden behind the obvious.
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 May, 2003 from Mostly in NSW Central Tablelands, Australia
I'm not sure of the distinction you are making between Bidule + VST bridge vs EnergyXT running as a VST plugin - aren't those two alternatives effectively equivalent, i.e. allowing both Bidule and EnergyXT to be hosted in a VST host? Or is the VST bridge approach for Bidule just that little bit less reliable/more kludgey?shamann wrote:It (Bidule) also comes with a VST bridge that lets you route in from another host and back.
EnergyXT is the only that runs as both a standalone and VST.
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- Banned
- 6127 posts since 1 Apr, 2004 from Et in Arcadia Ego
Here I am!shamann wrote:Reaktor are also good modular options, but both are very expensive and so will have to be recommended by someone other than me.
Cheers,
Steve
Get Reaktor & EnergyXT! f**k all that other crap!
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- KVRAF
- 12235 posts since 18 Aug, 2003
eXT is actually a plugin, so will run in another host.blurk wrote:I'm not sure of the distinction you are making between Bidule + VST bridge vs EnergyXT running as a VST plugin - aren't those two alternatives effectively equivalent, i.e. allowing both Bidule and EnergyXT to be hosted in a VST host? Or is the VST bridge approach for Bidule just that little bit less reliable/more kludgey?
The VST bridge works like a placemarker, and just routes audio/midi/sync out to Bidule, which runs as a standalone, which then can route back into the host. Essentially it is a VST version of a ReWire bridge.
The main difference is that you can only have one instance of the bridge, just as you can only have one instance of Bidule running. When in VST mode, Bidule won't accept audio in from any other device.
With eXT you can run as many instances in any host as you want, even running instances of eXT inside eXT. So it has much more use as chainer/rack filter. You could for instance create multi-effect presets in eXT, and have 3 instances running in Mulch, each one performing a different role. It's useful in that way as a common usage shortcut tool.
The bridge, however, would let you use Bidule as a ReWire bridge for non-Rewired hosts, if you are so inclined to use ReWired apps. I can't tell if tempo is sync'ed in Bidule to the originating host, it doesn't seem to be, but transport is.
Took you long enough.Sicklecell666 wrote:Here I am!
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- KVRian
- 1161 posts since 24 Dec, 2004 from Adelaide, South Australia
I own a license for Mulch and I think it is one of the easiest to use right out of the box. Gets you pretty immediate sound mangling results and all your audio can be recorded straight to disc with no problem. It's also very stable and hosting VST instruments is no problem. I have a MIDI controller hooked up and it recognises this and I can play whatever I want through it and record the results. It also has a feature called Metasurface which is well worth checking out. For live performance or live sound mangling, it's easily the best choice.
Mixcraft 8 Recording Studio : Reason 10
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- KVRAF
- 1619 posts since 19 Aug, 2004 from Toronto
I use them all, sometimes seperately, sometimes in combination with each other.
AudioMulch can automate PdVst (the Pure Data bridge) parameter changes, so those two work nicely together.
If you use MIDIOX or Hubi's Loopback vitual MIDI cables, AudioMulch sincs to external sequencers (like Bidule's) quite well.
Another major feature of AudioMulch is the MetaSurface, which has only recently been introduced, and therefore still has some kinks, but is nevertheless, imo, amazing. It allows you to take snapshots of parameter settings and morph between them as smoothly or crazily as you want. It's extremely flexable and the best new performance tool I've seen.
Bidule is getting really interesting too. Actually, it too has some features that make it wonderful for designing devices for live performance. Its Parameters window lets you link controls together in all manner of ways. Aswell, it has opened my eyes to the world of MIDI effects (as opposed to audio effects). But there's also way more to it, I'm actually having trouble thinking, because I just spent the day building things in Bidule and now my brains kinda fried from all the math. (of course, you don't need to do math to get a lot out of it)
Don't miss the smexStretch user Group (for Bidule).
ummm,.. other notes, ...
If you're trying to figure out Pure Data, this site can be helpful:
http://pure-data.iem.at/about
If you find you're getting in to SynthEdit, definately go here and download everything he has:
http://www.dehaupt.com/SynthEdit/semodules.htm
EnergyXT does rock,
and if I could afford it, I'd be all over Reaktor (download the latest demo, you'll see what Sicklecell666 means),
EnergyXT + Reaktor, is a pretty classy combo,
but all these programs have their own special qualities
Oh, and I don't think the Bidule Bridge is distributed with the normal download yet, but you can get it here : http://www.plogue.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=915
AudioMulch can automate PdVst (the Pure Data bridge) parameter changes, so those two work nicely together.
If you use MIDIOX or Hubi's Loopback vitual MIDI cables, AudioMulch sincs to external sequencers (like Bidule's) quite well.
Another major feature of AudioMulch is the MetaSurface, which has only recently been introduced, and therefore still has some kinks, but is nevertheless, imo, amazing. It allows you to take snapshots of parameter settings and morph between them as smoothly or crazily as you want. It's extremely flexable and the best new performance tool I've seen.
Bidule is getting really interesting too. Actually, it too has some features that make it wonderful for designing devices for live performance. Its Parameters window lets you link controls together in all manner of ways. Aswell, it has opened my eyes to the world of MIDI effects (as opposed to audio effects). But there's also way more to it, I'm actually having trouble thinking, because I just spent the day building things in Bidule and now my brains kinda fried from all the math. (of course, you don't need to do math to get a lot out of it)
Don't miss the smexStretch user Group (for Bidule).
ummm,.. other notes, ...
If you're trying to figure out Pure Data, this site can be helpful:
http://pure-data.iem.at/about
If you find you're getting in to SynthEdit, definately go here and download everything he has:
http://www.dehaupt.com/SynthEdit/semodules.htm
EnergyXT does rock,
and if I could afford it, I'd be all over Reaktor (download the latest demo, you'll see what Sicklecell666 means),
EnergyXT + Reaktor, is a pretty classy combo,
but all these programs have their own special qualities
Oh, and I don't think the Bidule Bridge is distributed with the normal download yet, but you can get it here : http://www.plogue.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=915
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- KVRAF
- 4822 posts since 14 Mar, 2002 from Somewhere else, on principle
Ableton Live
Reaktor
energyXT
Reaktor
energyXT
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 73 posts since 2 Jul, 2005 from Sydney
wow I didn't expect such a response:
shamann: some great info! I have already looked at Synthedit but when I go to the dowload page I get a page of gibberish instead of a dowmload dialog box?
Pure Data seemed to me a lightweight version of MAX/MSP but after reading some stuff I think it may still be a little too intense. For the moment I just want to dive in and see what I can do. If later I want to get into coding, so be it. EnergyXT + audiomulch seems like a great combo and bidule looks kickass by itself!
intel: yeah thanks for the heads up. That's another one that been recommended to me that I need to explore. I'd use it as a sound source exclusively.
Sicklecell666: Reaktor looks pretty damn attractive, but I've just laid out AU$3000 for my laptop system and need to be rather frugal in the coming months
okay maybe if I gave a bit more of my background it would help out. I am into designing abstract walls of sound. But I also come from a musical background and like the whole improvisational part of it too. So I guess I am looking for a combination of realtime processing of in-coming signals, as well synthetically creating sounds through synthesis or mangling samples blah blah and capturing all this to hard-drive to go back and editing and overdubbing or whatever else. So I've got it down to:
n-track for multitrack recording/editing of wav files
audiomulch (fellow aussie) + eXT
bidule
synthmaker
buzz
a CRAPLOAD of freeware / shareware / donationware VST plugins I've scrounged around and downloaded via the KVR community.
Let the audio carnage begin! (well shortly)
shamann: some great info! I have already looked at Synthedit but when I go to the dowload page I get a page of gibberish instead of a dowmload dialog box?
Pure Data seemed to me a lightweight version of MAX/MSP but after reading some stuff I think it may still be a little too intense. For the moment I just want to dive in and see what I can do. If later I want to get into coding, so be it. EnergyXT + audiomulch seems like a great combo and bidule looks kickass by itself!
intel: yeah thanks for the heads up. That's another one that been recommended to me that I need to explore. I'd use it as a sound source exclusively.
Sicklecell666: Reaktor looks pretty damn attractive, but I've just laid out AU$3000 for my laptop system and need to be rather frugal in the coming months
okay maybe if I gave a bit more of my background it would help out. I am into designing abstract walls of sound. But I also come from a musical background and like the whole improvisational part of it too. So I guess I am looking for a combination of realtime processing of in-coming signals, as well synthetically creating sounds through synthesis or mangling samples blah blah and capturing all this to hard-drive to go back and editing and overdubbing or whatever else. So I've got it down to:
n-track for multitrack recording/editing of wav files
audiomulch (fellow aussie) + eXT
bidule
synthmaker
buzz
a CRAPLOAD of freeware / shareware / donationware VST plugins I've scrounged around and downloaded via the KVR community.
Let the audio carnage begin! (well shortly)
Last edited by psychopractor on Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 500 posts since 13 May, 2003 from Mostly in NSW Central Tablelands, Australia
Aaah, you are in Aus are you? Where abouts? If Sydney, I'm involved with a bunch of people that put on monthly experimental audio gigs (I make my debut at the end of this month), and it sounds like you'd fit the bill quite well.isischild wrote:(fellow aussie)
Have you seen Ross Bencina perform at all? He came up to Sydney last year, and I saw him do a show based around Audiomulch (of course) and a P5 data glove.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 73 posts since 2 Jul, 2005 from Sydney
indeed I am in Sydney!!
Yeah I'm really itching to get out there and do some live stuff. I've been looking around at venues and about the only people who do stuff that may find me interesting could be:
Frequency Lab: I saw Oren Ambarchi, stasis duo, peter blamey, and splinter orchestra perform here.
System Corrupt
the NOW now
though I have no idea how to get my foot in the door. I e-mailed Frequency Lab but no dice.
And no I didn't see Ross. I only found out yesterday audiomulch is from Melbourne - I almost felt patriotic!
Yeah I'm really itching to get out there and do some live stuff. I've been looking around at venues and about the only people who do stuff that may find me interesting could be:
Frequency Lab: I saw Oren Ambarchi, stasis duo, peter blamey, and splinter orchestra perform here.
System Corrupt
the NOW now
though I have no idea how to get my foot in the door. I e-mailed Frequency Lab but no dice.
And no I didn't see Ross. I only found out yesterday audiomulch is from Melbourne - I almost felt patriotic!