Emulations - Architecture vs. real emulation

[jmh]

I was trying to avoid replying, as it might seem I'm once again "attacking" someone... but hey, it's KVR after all

Try to perform that sound (even approximately) with a Zeta or Albino or VAZ or Tera or any the other latest "state of the art" VSTis - I mean the ENTIRE sonic variousity of the AN1x ...
You wouldn't be able ...

So why is that ??? I can only guess: It has probably to do with SOUND ARCHITECTURE and SYNTHESIS KNOWLEDGEMENT ...

Uhm... Zeta outperforms AN1X in the architecture department hands down. And easily. Sonic variety? AN1X doesn't stand a chance in comparison.

Bigtone's whatwasitcalled bank - Ambient & trance or something like that - proves so simply how much more versatile Zeta is. I'm rather sure the demo mp3s can be found via forum search.

But choosing between two mentioned, I'd choose AN1X
It's more up my alley, architecture-wise... seldom do I feel the need for 6 oscillators (although Zeta's oscillators are flexible and come with features useful for certain things indeed), the filters aren't that special sounding (I'm a groupie of filters that have some definite character) and mod matrix is something I have really little use for. But I can still see the potential and power Zeta has.

Synthesis knowledge? Yeah, there I agree wholeheartedly. (No disrespect to René and his products, I'm not applying this part to Zeta or any particular product or developer). Damn that AN1X still sounds great after all these years. While the sound character (especially filters) aren't the "phattest" around, that synth sounds gorgeous. And it does show how versatile a 'simpler' VA can be, when the coders do know how to make things sound good, and have been able to add a good variety of controls instead of the bog standard (dare I say SynthEdity ) "two oscillators with a couple of waveforms, pwm, let's throw in a filter and two envelopes and call it done" thinking that still seems to plague the architecture side of VST synth design.

Once again, I'm tempted to get a used AN1X. Had already forgotten how versatile and good sounding it was.

Regards,

JMH

[crimsontider]

But, then, in some very finite amount of time, the softsynths would overtake it in that respect.

That's a fact jack.

[blümchen]

Uhm... Zeta outperforms AN1X in the architecture department hands down. And easily. Sonic variety? AN1X doesn't stand a chance in comparison.

Bigtone's whatwasitcalled bank - Ambient & trance or something like that - proves so simply how much more versatile Zeta is. I'm rather sure the demo mp3s can be found via forum search.

Bla , bla bla.
You always talk bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

Please prove, wat you claimed.
Otherwise I am really that kinda bored, that I will not longer reply or even read one of your posts.



Please recreate sample 3 with ZETA or sample 8 or sample 4. Please.
(You simply cannot do that for several reasons. One of them is architectural, the other has to do with ability.)

And that is not all that simple, as you may believe.
The AN1X has an VERY WELL thought architecture - not "simpler". I would claim, that the AN1X is just more difficult to recreate than the VIRUS. And you know, what I am talking about, right?

.

[droolmaster0]

Uhm... Zeta outperforms AN1X in the architecture department hands down. And easily. Sonic variety? AN1X doesn't stand a chance in comparison.

Bigtone's whatwasitcalled bank - Ambient & trance or something like that - proves so simply how much more versatile Zeta is. I'm rather sure the demo mp3s can be found via forum search.

Bla , bla bla.
You always talk bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

Please prove, wat you claimed.
Otherwise I am really that kinda bored, that I will not longer reply or even read one of your posts.



Please recreate sample 3 with ZETA or sample 8 or sample 4. Please.
(You simply cannot do that for several reasons. One of them is architectural, the other has to do with ability.)

And that is not all that simple, as you may believe.
The AN1X has an VERY WELL thought architecture - not simple, which bases on decades of experience and knowledge and skills.

.

I liked his post quite a bit. Quite rational, I thought. Ultimately, if the sound of a synth just GRABS you, that makes the difference....

But, I ask you - isn't it possible that you could create sounds on Z3ta+ that could not be recreated on the an1x? (I've actually not played an an1x, but I am intrigued now). And, if so, what point do you make by only showing this in one direction (if it's even true - I'm not particularly interested).

[blümchen]

Well. It is merely my opinion.

I have both synthesizers: Zeta and the AN1X. So please guess, which of them I use more (even if it is more complicated to record) ...

I think, if Zeta would be that fantastic, so then I would rather use that on each track as a simple plugin and not do the exorbitant overhead of external recording the AN1X (which has by the way a voice limit of 10 voices!) ...

Right?

So I do rather successive record aone track after an other with the AN1X than using Zeta on all tracks in realtime.
That should give you to think about.


The reason is, you simply can't do with Zeta, what you can do with the AN1X.

.

[droolmaster0]

Well. It is merely my opinion.

I have both synthesizers: Zeta and the AN1X. So please guess, which of them I use more (even if it is more complicated to record) ...

I think, if Zeta would be that fantastic, so then I would rather use that on each track as a simple plugin and not do the exorbitant overhead of external recording the AN1X (which has by the way a voice limit of 10 voices!) ...

Right?

So I do rather successive record aone track after an other with the AN1X than using Zeta on all tracks in realtime.
That should give you to think about.


The reason is, you simply can't do with Zeta, what you can do with the AN1X.

.

sorry, but how exactly you do your own recording is not an argument for or against your opinion about these synths. It is again, simply your opinion. Which, of course, you are entitled to.

[blümchen]

Right.
I did never do something different here, than telling my opinion. So what?

And what you told is probably your opinion and also not the exact mirror of the reality, right?

If you prefer rather Zeta than the AN1X, so that's probably because you have no AN1X. If you had aone, you wouldn't say (like JMH) that the Zeta is able to "ouptperform" the AN1X, because that actually isn't the case.

I use Zeta too, but very very seldom lately (cause I think, there are allot more fascinating VSTis out in the meantime). But I use the AN1X, like the VIRUS continuous on the other side for some reasons.

That's even somehow the theme here.

And I am not the men, who all the time brings Zeta into the game (I merely selected some VSTis randomly, which were counted inside that thread before). In fact I would not even consider it seriously for any comparsion with that hardware synthesizer. It was a metapher.
If you really study the architectures of those both synthesizers and actually understand it (that goes to JMH ), you probably wouldn't do that. Because the AN1X is in my opinion allot more professional and better thought than the Zeta (even architectural), Zeta has unfortunately a kinda "laymen" touch in my eyes and ears. Not really a well thougt or even experienced or skilled sound architecture, nor any ergonomic genius (interface). In fact I cannot understand this hype, because there is no reason for a hype. Again my opinion.



.

[grotman]

Just slightly a little bit off topic......... but I see so many mentions from so called or self appointed synth experts, the same bloody comment. It is that many young people or people in general have no idea about what they are talking about when they comment on synths of yore being emulated accurately and sound like the real thing, because they have not played the real thing. Okay maybe not all do...... but have you thought for a minute or two that maybe they do have an educated opinion on the topic... I have never played a real moog or CS80 or in fact most of them.... but does it matter that i didn't play these things to know what they sounded like.... nah not really......they were on most of my favorite albums..... do i know what they sound like or what a pretty good emulation would sound like ..... f**k yeah i heard em a million times in albums, movies well hell just about evrythin electronic music is related to...... This is the funny thing about synth players and afficioandos i never get.... Man have you guys ever played a stradivarius, a Pearl\Brady drum kit, a fender\gibson guitar\bass maybe not maybe so but i bet you know what they would sound like and whether or not they were accurately modelled\represented in a software recreation... if not;excellent just dont go spouting crap about people that probably wouldn't ever get a chance to play let alone see in real life but know the sound very well and state they couldn't or shouldn't have an opinion of its authenticity....Sounds pretty ignorant to me... could be just me though

[crimsontider]

Just slightly a little bit off topic......... but I see so many mentions from so called or self appointed synth experts, the same bloody comment. It is that many young people or people in general have no idea about what they are talking about when they comment on synths of yore being emulated accurately and sound like the real thing, because they have not played the real thing. Okay maybe not all do...... but have you thought for a minute or two that maybe they do have an educated opinion on the topic... I have never played a real moog or CS80 or in fact most of them.... but does it matter that i didn't play these things to know what they sounded like.... nah not really......they were on most of my favorite albums..... do i know what they sound like or what a pretty good emulation would sound like ..... f**k yeah i heard em a million times in albums, movies well hell just about evrythin electronic music is related to

Your comments have merit but in judging an accurate emulation, sound is only one important aspect. How can you judge how filters and envelopes react if you have never played the real thing? Otherwise a sample could be labeled an emulation. So you need to have extensive flight time to be a credible judge imho. Unless you're just discussing sound.

[jmh]

Uhm... Zeta outperforms AN1X in the architecture department hands down. And easily. Sonic variety? AN1X doesn't stand a chance in comparison.

Bigtone's whatwasitcalled bank - Ambient & trance or something like that - proves so simply how much more versatile Zeta is. I'm rather sure the demo mp3s can be found via forum search.

Bla , bla bla.
You always talk bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.

As do you - it's just that I at least try to back up my claims and don't get squirmish when someone addresses me

Please prove, wat you claimed.
Otherwise I am really that kinda bored, that I will not longer reply or even read one of your posts.

What kind of proof could you need, when you're familiar with both? I was talking about the architecture - why don't YOU prove how much superior AN1X is compared to Zeta as that was YOUR original claim? The burden of proof lies with you in this case.
It's an easy way out of a conversation to do that - claim something and then asking others to prove their differing opinions.

Please recreate sample 3 with ZETA or sample 8 or sample 4. Please. (You simply cannot do that for several reasons. One of them is architectural, the other has to do with ability.)

Saying "synth A outperforms synth B" doesn't necessitate synth A is capable of doing exactly the same things as synth B. Especially when one of the compared synth is first and foremost analogue modeling and the other one isn't.

And that is not all that simple, as you may believe.
The AN1X has an VERY WELL thought architecture - not "simpler". I would claim, that the AN1X is just more difficult to recreate than the VIRUS. And you know, what I am talking about, right?

Yes, I do. But I'm still able to see that what Zeta can do, is beyond AN1X' architecture. Simple as that. Zeta has "more of everything", beginning from the number of oscillators and for that reason alone, is more capable of sonic variety. Add to this all the possibilities for oscillator modes, crossmodulations between oscillators, all the filter types and routing options, the mod matrix... comparing apples to apples, still cannot see why AN1X would be superior in those areas.

And none of this mean I'mm claiming Zeta to sound better As that is a different issue.

Have you already noticed that you always claim you're "bored" when people don't necessarily agree with you?-)

And while I don't own an AN1X, I'm more than enough familiar with it to assess its capabilities compared to something like Zeta - which I don't own either, like I've said before. If I was going to choose between them, I'd choose AN1X, even if it was just a VST synth, so that should clearly state which one I like more. It shouldn't be that hard to understand that not everybody likes the same synth over another as you, but the funny thing is that we both favor the same synth in this case.

As for my comment about AN1X being "simpler" - I mean simpler in the sense that it is easier to grasp, doesn't provide as much features as Zeta (once again, let's just start with the amount of oscillators and what you can do with them). I didn't mean to devalue AN1X at all, as I said (several times already) that I prefer it. I prefer its sound, its featureset, its sound.

But I'm still able to compare AN1X or any other synth to another one based on the feature set and such criteria - and that is my point. Without sentimental attachment to any particular synth, without preferring something just because it's hardware, without defending my own investment in a piece of equipment or software.

Because the AN1X is in my opinion allot more professional and better thought than the Zeta (even architectural)

Yes, it's extremly flexible and well thought out. Good value for the money.

I don't know how to put it otherwise, so I'll try this: if we strip all the extra features off Zeta and compared it to AN1X like that - same amount of oscillators, filter, same routings, same modulation capabilities... AN1X would be the winner, since it is doing the Zeta isn't intended to do. But it's all those extra things Zeta has that make me disagree in this matter.

As for you comments about its usability and so on... you know now why I haven't purchased it Yet another thing AN1X excels in (of course, now we're talking hardware versus software). I prefer my synths with logical layouts, all important controls available, and so on. For that reason, Zeta isn't for me. I also don't feel the need to have 6 oscillators since the kind of music I do doesn't involve complex soundscapes or the kind of sounds that need it... and when I need things like, I resort to other synths that are in my eyes more suited to it.

Nevertheless... Bigtone's soundbank simply shows the great variety of stuff a skilled programmer can coax out of Zeta. And because of that, both Bigtone and René get my respect.

Regards,

JMH

[grotman]

Just slightly a little bit off topic......... but I see so many mentions from so called or self appointed synth experts, the same bloody comment. It is that many young people or people in general have no idea about what they are talking about when they comment on synths of yore being emulated accurately and sound like the real thing, because they have not played the real thing. Okay maybe not all do...... but have you thought for a minute or two that maybe they do have an educated opinion on the topic... I have never played a real moog or CS80 or in fact most of them.... but does it matter that i didn't play these things to know what they sounded like.... nah not really......they were on most of my favorite albums..... do i know what they sound like or what a pretty good emulation would sound like ..... f**k yeah i heard em a million times in albums, movies well hell just about evrythin electronic music is related to

Your comments have merit but in judging an accurate emulation, sound is only one important aspect. How can you judge how filters and envelopes react if you have never played the real thing? Otherwise a sample could be labeled an emulation. So you need to have extensive flight time to be a credible judge imho. Unless you're just discussing sound.

yes just sound...however you can hear the filters and evelopes (or anything else that makes a sound for that matter)too,all that takes is ears, and if you play a synth you probably have a fair idea of what they do and how they sound or react\work as well.... you are absolutely correct though.

[crimsontider]

Just slightly a little bit off topic......... but I see so many mentions from so called or self appointed synth experts, the same bloody comment. It is that many young people or people in general have no idea about what they are talking about when they comment on synths of yore being emulated accurately and sound like the real thing, because they have not played the real thing. Okay maybe not all do...... but have you thought for a minute or two that maybe they do have an educated opinion on the topic... I have never played a real moog or CS80 or in fact most of them.... but does it matter that i didn't play these things to know what they sounded like.... nah not really......they were on most of my favorite albums..... do i know what they sound like or what a pretty good emulation would sound like ..... f**k yeah i heard em a million times in albums, movies well hell just about evrythin electronic music is related to

Your comments have merit but in judging an accurate emulation, sound is only one important aspect. How can you judge how filters and envelopes react if you have never played the real thing? Otherwise a sample could be labeled an emulation. So you need to have extensive flight time to be a credible judge imho. Unless you're just discussing sound.

yes just sound...however you can hear the filters and evelopes (or anything else that makes a sound for that matter)too,all that takes is ears, and if you play a synth you probably have a fair idea of what they do and how they sound or react\work as well.... you are absolutely correct though.

And so are you in that someone with no hands on experience but a good ear could be a better judge than a buffoon who owns the hardware synth.

[grotman]

Just slightly a little bit off topic......... but I see so many mentions from so called or self appointed synth experts, the same bloody comment. It is that many young people or people in general have no idea about what they are talking about when they comment on synths of yore being emulated accurately and sound like the real thing, because they have not played the real thing. Okay maybe not all do...... but have you thought for a minute or two that maybe they do have an educated opinion on the topic... I have never played a real moog or CS80 or in fact most of them.... but does it matter that i didn't play these things to know what they sounded like.... nah not really......they were on most of my favorite albums..... do i know what they sound like or what a pretty good emulation would sound like ..... f**k yeah i heard em a million times in albums, movies well hell just about evrythin electronic music is related to

Your comments have merit but in judging an accurate emulation, sound is only one important aspect. How can you judge how filters and envelopes react if you have never played the real thing? Otherwise a sample could be labeled an emulation. So you need to have extensive flight time to be a credible judge imho. Unless you're just discussing sound.

yes just sound...however you can hear the filters and evelopes (or anything else that makes a sound for that matter)too,all that takes is ears, and if you play a synth you probably have a fair idea of what they do and how they sound or react\work as well.... you are absolutely correct though.

And so are you in that someone with no hands on experience but a good ear could be a better judge than a baffoon who owns the hardware synth.

no and no and if you read my post there are no such claims whatsoever to this point...absolutely none whatsoever...ever.....eeeeeeeva....eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvrer.....what envelope am i using,, or more importantly emulating or whateveeeeeeeeeeeeerr..... just joking man you should surely see my point though

[grotman]

Just slightly a little bit off topic......... but I see so many mentions from so called or self appointed synth experts, the same bloody comment. It is that many young people or people in general have no idea about what they are talking about when they comment on synths of yore being emulated accurately and sound like the real thing, because they have not played the real thing. Okay maybe not all do...... but have you thought for a minute or two that maybe they do have an educated opinion on the topic... I have never played a real moog or CS80 or in fact most of them.... but does it matter that i didn't play these things to know what they sounded like.... nah not really......they were on most of my favorite albums..... do i know what they sound like or what a pretty good emulation would sound like ..... f**k yeah i heard em a million times in albums, movies well hell just about evrythin electronic music is related to

Your comments have merit but in judging an accurate emulation, sound is only one important aspect. How can you judge how filters and envelopes react if you have never played the real thing? Otherwise a sample could be labeled an emulation. So you need to have extensive flight time to be a credible judge imho. Unless you're just discussing sound.

yes just sound...however you can hear the filters and evelopes (or anything else that makes a sound for that matter)too,all that takes is ears, and if you play a synth you probably have a fair idea of what they do and how they sound or react\work as well.... you are absolutely correct though.

And so are you in that someone with no hands on experience but a good ear could be a better judge than a baffoon who owns the hardware synth.

no and no and if you read my post there are no such claims whatsoever to this point...absolutely none whatsoever...ever.....eeeeeeeva....eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvrer.....what envelope am i using,, or more importantly emulating or whateveeeeeeeeeeeeerr..... just joking man you should surely see my point though

Directly after the part you leftout in your reply with quote.... was this

"Man have you guys ever played a stradivarius, a Pearl\Brady drum kit, a fender\gibson guitar\bass maybe not maybe so but i bet you know what they would sound like and whether or not they were accurately modelled\represented in a software recreation... if not;excellent just dont go spouting crap about people that probably wouldn't ever get a chance to play let alone see in real life but know the sound very well and state they couldn't or shouldn't have an opinion of its authenticity....Sounds pretty ignorant to me... could be just me though"

[grotman]

Just slightly a little bit off topic......... but I see so many mentions from so called or self appointed synth experts, the same bloody comment. It is that many young people or people in general have no idea about what they are talking about when they comment on synths of yore being emulated accurately and sound like the real thing, because they have not played the real thing. Okay maybe not all do...... but have you thought for a minute or two that maybe they do have an educated opinion on the topic... I have never played a real moog or CS80 or in fact most of them.... but does it matter that i didn't play these things to know what they sounded like.... nah not really......they were on most of my favorite albums..... do i know what they sound like or what a pretty good emulation would sound like ..... f**k yeah i heard em a million times in albums, movies well hell just about evrythin electronic music is related to

Your comments have merit but in judging an accurate emulation, sound is only one important aspect. How can you judge how filters and envelopes react if you have never played the real thing? Otherwise a sample could be labeled an emulation. So you need to have extensive flight time to be a credible judge imho. Unless you're just discussing sound.

yes just sound...however you can hear the filters and evelopes (or anything else that makes a sound for that matter)too,all that takes is ears, and if you play a synth you probably have a fair idea of what they do and how they sound or react\work as well.... you are absolutely correct though.

And so are you in that someone with no hands on experience but a good ear could be a better judge than a baffoon who owns the hardware synth.

no and no and if you read my post there are no such claims whatsoever to this point...absolutely none whatsoever...ever.....eeeeeeeva....eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvrer.....what envelope am i using,, or more importantly emulating or whateveeeeeeeeeeeeerr..... just joking man you should surely see my point though

"Man have you guys ever played a stradivarius, a Pearl\Brady drum kit, a fender\gibson guitar\bass maybe not maybe so but i bet you know what they would sound like and whether or not they were accurately modelled\represented in a software recreation... if not;excellent just dont go spouting crap about people that probably wouldn't ever get a chance to play let alone see in real life but know the sound very well and state they couldn't or shouldn't have an opinion of its authenticity....Sounds pretty ignorant to me... could be just me though" Directly after the part you leftout in your reply with quote.... was this

What i mean to say is this...... a fender bass jass model is heard on thousands of albums, I know the sound you know the sound.... are you a bafoon or am I, or am I more educated or learned than you because i know its attack and response time due to the playibility or hours spent jacking her up better than you....NO I would not presume that...... read my post again if its not clear....BTW what muso calls themselves a bafoon for instrumental respect or knowledge of the instrument, really, isn't a bafoon a fool.. thats what we call it where i come from........PEACE