KVR Audio

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:59 am

"I don't think anybody's obliged to learn music theory, but I can't see good argument for refusing to learn something about it. Learning's good - even if it's just to find out that you don't want it/need it".

but that's not true...remember I believe in learning theory...but there is a damn good reason...it's a piss poor excuse, but certainly it's given reason to more misconceptions then anything else (in all walks of life)...fear...that's the reason. Just like when we were kids we were afraid of the dark because we didn't know what was there...we haven't changed, we still fear what we cant see, but as we mature(?) often what we cant see is right in front of us...

pooshka · Post by **pooshka** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:11 am

As you said, that's a poor excuse but as far as reasons go it does explain a few things I guess. :p

McLilith · Post by **McLilith** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:57 am

sparlecki wrote:...kittens and rainbows...

That belongs on the "Band Names I'll Never Use" thread.

McLilith

fabi · Post by **fabi** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:12 pm

i think a lot of this thread (and the threads that 'inspired' this thread) is based on fear on both sides. and when people feel threatened, they sometimes tend to lash out, to eliminate the threat.

pooshka, it can still be very satisfying to discover that you have discovered something on your own that someone else discovered on his own a couple of decades ago and was proclaimed a genius for. (ye yeh, you linguists out there, don't end sentences with prepositions, it's bad english bla bla)

bad english might keep you from getting good jobs with magazines/newspapers/dunno what, but a lot of important literature was written by people with poor formal training. if training and knowledge were all there is to it, then we would all be listening to the guy/gal who has been the most privileged and thus been able to invest most of his lifetime in studying his art form with all the money and teachers privilege can buy.

but that's not always the case.

one thing about the 'if you use melody you are using theory' argument: the people who have posted such things probably know that to be bullshit, but it does sound pretty good. however, i don't need a degree in physics to know how to walk and run, do i? and do you think providing babies with enough theory about gravity and anatomy would substantially help them walk and run? well, i don't...

x is of interest to some, but not to others. i have heard things i didn't appreciate by both x and not x...

kvr is a good way to avoid cleaning my place. gone.

deleted · Post by **deleted** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:16 pm

DELETED

wrench45us · Post by **wrench45us** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:37 pm

i've metioned it before
i'll probably mention it again

Rikky Rooksby has two very decent, very helpful books
'Songwriter's Guide'
'Writing Songs for Guitar'

both are guitar-oriented and chord-oriented, but definitely easily applied to keyboards
very painless way to absorb the most useful and used areas of theory -- cause it's not just theory, it's applied practice, it's how songs get written and how/why they work or don't
just a few nights and a few chapters can make a big difference. the 'Songwriter's' book goes slower but builds up as it goes. A little more basic. The 'Guitar' book jumps right in and covers a little more ground.
Neither one gets much into 'jazz' chords -- just lays a song structure foundation -- so those jazzier colors have a structure to fit.

netsound · Post by **netsound** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:35 pm

fabi the underachiever is right on the money!

And like someone said, WHO GIVES A SHIT!

I eat I walk I feel.
Let me live my life the way I want to and stop telling us what to do!

Those who can't do, teach!

Or

there are those who Teach, those who Play and those who Run!

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:50 pm

wrench45us wrote:i've metioned it before
i'll probably mention it again

Rikky Rooksby has two very decent, very helpful books
'Songwriter's Guide'
'Writing Songs for Guitar'

both are guitar-oriented and chord-oriented, but definitely easily applied to keyboards
very painless way to absorb the most useful and used areas of theory -- cause it's not just theory, it's applied practice, it's how songs get written and how/why they work or don't
just a few nights and a few chapters can make a big difference. the 'Songwriter's' book goes slower but builds up as it goes. A little more basic. The 'Guitar' book jumps right in and covers a little more ground.
Neither one gets much into 'jazz' chords -- just lays a song structure foundation -- so those jazzier colors have a structure to fit.

I posted this before in this thread, but I will again...the theory version is 20 bux, it plays midi examples to hear. Your books wrench45us are probably great, no doubt...but at 20 bux this is a great companion for any book, or just a good source for theory education...

http://www.chordwizard.com/products.asp

kaden · Post by **kaden** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:13 pm

And like someone said, WHO GIVES A SHIT!

Don't make any plans to work with professional musicians, then...time is money to them, and if you can't speak their language, you're better off staying in your bedroom.

I always love watching people brag about their ignorance.

netsound · Post by **netsound** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:21 pm

I could care less about working with professional snobs!

Stupid American Pig · Post by **Stupid American Pig** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:27 pm

I for one like to learn theory. I like to know why something sounds good to me, and what its called. I like to know what key and chords Im playing so I can give others who collaborate with me the proper chord/note names. I think that learning music theory *DOES* give you a good ear for music, when you hear a Major seventh resolve down to a 6th, and you hear the combination of happyiness and sadness it evokes, it inspires. I like to be able to play something on guitar and then play the exact same thing on piano and vice versa. I like knowing how easy it is to improvise a solo using a pentatonic scale, I like knowing what a pentatonic scale is. I generally play what sounds good to me, but If I am composing and I dont know where to go from where I am, I try different chords in the key I am in and *Voila* I can finish a composition much more quickly, especcially on guitar. I know that I am not a great song writer, but learning theory has made my songs improve by a factor of 1000(and show how much I sucked in some cases previously, and learn that I was using diminished and augmented chords before without even knowing it).

I know that learning theory is tedious, seems childish(especially when you are learning yankee doodle and yer in yer mid 20s) and doesnt always "click" at first. I have studied theory seriously for about 3 years now, and I am by no means an expert but is just as valuble to me as owning that must have vst/effect/host/hardware, they are all tools.

fabi · Post by **fabi** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:34 pm

kaden wrote:
And like someone said, WHO GIVES A SHIT!
Don't make any plans to work with professional musicians, then...time is money to them, and if you can't speak their language, you're better off staying in your bedroom.

I always love watching people brag about their ignorance.

well, i wouldn't bother to compete with trained musicians in their field. it's just that we are playing very different games. and let's face it - it could be quite successfully argued that anyone with enough time and interest to know as much about vst and music theory as some of us do, will most likely be a spoilt brat playing with his/her toys...

I always love watching people mistake knowledge for ability. the professors at uni know literary theory up and down with all its fun terms, yet the ones i have met are no competition to me when it comes to putting literature into context, interpreting texts and dissecting sentences or paragraphs.

I can easily write poetry that someone interested in theory could write whole books about.

the biological/physical/chemical theory behind dog shit is very complex, too, you know...

(yes, i am aware of the irony. were you?)

SouledOut · Post by **SouledOut** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:35 pm

[/quote]
Their will be people with theory who are great players who will always be shit programmers and composers.
[/quote]

How right You are...

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:35 pm

netsound wrote:I could care less about working with professional snobs!

likely they feel the same way about you...so knowledge = snob...jess kids these days...

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 5:45 pm

It's strange. This thread is full of people who know their theory and seem happy about it. Together with people who know none and are seem happy about it.
Until recently I'd have put myself in the group that knew very little (cos it's hard) but wished I knew more.
Anybody else feel a bit like that?

Rant on music theory ignorance.