Rant on music theory ignorance.

[jplanet]

I have been in bands with players who didn't know music theory. At times they got results that were truly imaginative, at other times it sounded like crap.

If you play in a band, it just helps you communicate. You can either say "A minor", or you can hold an "A" until someone gets it and then tell them to make it sound ominous. They might latch on quickly, but odds are it would be a lot friggin quicker if they could just play an A minor.

To compose music in the true sense of the word, you should be able to imagine a melody and play it, or at least figure it out in a reasonable amount of time. If everything you ever produce is by accident, odds are that most of it is unlistenable.

It's such a satisfying experience to improvise with other players that know their theory. Just enough theory to know how to stay in key -- even better if they know how to go outside the lines deliberately, then back in again. To have a jam with really gifted players is the closest one can come to feeling as if they can fly.

The ironic part is that among musicians who refuse to admit that theory will help them with their goal there are some who will whine about how vintage gear is the only way to go, everything's gotta be tubes, analog circuits, etc. Hmmmm...what about genuine musicianship?

Sorry, I just don't get how a lack of knowledge in what you're doing could possibly help anyone. If you can do something good with a lack of knowledge, just imagine how incredible you will be when you finally learn.

jplanet has spoken!

[McLilith]

kvr is a good way to avoid cleaning my place. gone.

That explains why my room is a total mess!


McLilith

[McLilith]

One of the guys in Yello doesn't know a C from a G. Seems to not be big a problem though...

Is he a drummer by any chance?


McLilith

[grotman]

I have been in bands with players who didn't know music theory. At times they got results that were truly imaginative, at other times it sounded like crap.

If you play in a band, it just helps you communicate. You can either say "A minor", or you can hold an "A" until someone gets it and then tell them to make it sound ominous. They might latch on quickly, but odds are it would be a lot friggin quicker if they could just play an A minor.

To compose music in the true sense of the word, you should be able to imagine a melody and play it, or at least figure it out in a reasonable amount of time. If everything you ever produce is by accident, odds are that most of it is unlistenable.

It's such a satisfying experience to improvise with other players that know their theory. Just enough theory to know how to stay in key -- even better if they know how to go outside the lines deliberately, then back in again. To have a jam with really gifted players is the closest one can come to feeling as if they can fly.

The ironic part is that among musicians who refuse to admit that theory will help them with their goal there are some who will whine about how vintage gear is the only way to go, everything's gotta be tubes, analog circuits, etc. Hmmmm...what about genuine musicianship?

Sorry, I just don't get how a lack of knowledge in what you're doing could possibly help anyone. If you can do something good with a lack of knowledge, just imagine how incredible you will be when you finally learn.

jplanet has spoken!

I agree ......just quit a band with very inspirated musos just couldn't communicate musically. I have only ever found one player in my town that can. oh well ......fuggit

[fabi]

Sorry, I just don't get how a lack of knowledge in what you're doing could possibly help anyone.

The thing is that maybe it is not what some people are doing. Music does not mean music. Unlistenable is very subjective. So is listenable.

painters and drawing artists. apes and orgasmutants. sure you can tell someone who does all his photography in black and white to learn color theory, and maybe he will and maybe it'll take him new exciting places.
but maybe it doesn't apply to him/her, and he chooses to ignore it, apart from common knowledge.


people feel threatened and hurt, so they threaten and hurt. it is so easy to let and let, ya know...

some people might feel very comfortable with being taught and learning from books. maybe they have had better experiences with teachers and books and schools than those, who have developed an aversion to teachers and books. it's understandable that people think other people are full of shit and their music is shit, but isn't that exhausting? to keep defending yourself and try to establish just why the things you like are the right things to like?


speaking strictly for myself, i don't have a problem with books or theory, but i tend to teach myself, regardless of whether we are talking music or not. what cripples MY creativity (it does, but i know it's not the case for some of you) is when someone asks me to do something specific. it doesn't matter whether or not i am capable, as soon as the expectation is there i freak out...

[fabi]

which makes relationships and sex quite difficult...

[netsound]

I know people who can play anything, yet when I heard something that they came up with, its total scholary nonsense. Its almost like those street photorealistic pencil artists that can draw you on paper almost like a picture. The problem is that if you look at it carefully something isn't right. And the way they draw it is they start from the top and finish at the bottom. That not how you draw. All drawing teachers in college understood that. Drawing is not about replicating what you see. Its about discovering the shapes within the page. Sketching out lines angles and letting yourhand do the work not the mind. Music is the same way.

Now before you jump at my neck, just know that I have nothing against learning theory, I'm constantly learning every day something about theory, mixing, mastering, synths, etc. I love learning.

All i'm trying to say is that you can't learn creativity and intuition. It is something that comes from the unknown depths of our minds, our hearts and our souls.

[jplanet]

...All i'm trying to say is that you can't learn creativity and intuition. It is something that comes from the unknown depths of our minds, our hearts and our souls.

Absolutely. And yes, I was in a band with a bass player who staunchly avoided theory, but what he came up with was very imaginative. It was very inspiring. But what made us a good team is that in places where his ideas lacked more musical substance, he was open-minded enough to accept my input. Also, had I not known theory, the band would have been a disaster, otherwise how would I have known what chords to play over his insane bass parts?

You need balance. Both are necessary. Theory alone will get you to a certain point, creativity will get you to another point, but having both will take you, and your listeners, much further.

[Stupid American Pig]

Contrary to popular belief, learning theory wont kill yer creativity, it is something yer born with and nothing can take that away...

[netsound]

CORRECT!
Just look at the few number of people who ever become successfull in the music world, yet music school have been swarming with students. Not everyone's got what it takes to be a GreenDay or a Nirvana Or a NIN or Madona... And no i'm not saying that you can't get to that level, but it take more then just theory. And Please Don't star talking about bar musicians.....

[McLilith]

Not everyone's got what it takes to be a GreenDay or a Nirvana Or a NIN or Madona...

That's certainly reassuring to know!


McLilith

[jplanet]

Not everyone's got what it takes to be a GreenDay or a Nirvana Or a NIN or Madona...

You just might have named the only four artists to achieve popularity without knowing the name of a single chord!


(actually, I'll bet that Trent Reznow knows his theory, even though he would probably never admit it publicly, he's too cool for that.)

[DevonB]

I know people who can play anything, yet when I heard something that they came up with, its total scholary nonsense.

You can teach a skill, but you can't teach talent. Either you got talent or you don't.

Theory is a skill. If you've got 'talent', in some way you know theory. Truely talented (and smart) musicians use theory to strengthen their musical skills. But, just because you know theory doesn't mean you'll make good music either.

Devon

[geoffrey]

None of the old blues or rockabilly guys knew music theory. Hendrix did not know music theory. Musical talent/genius is not found within a Slominsky theory tome. It's in the heart and soul. Having said that, I think learning theory is a good thing. Hell, learning is a good thing in almost any situation. (Guess that's why I am a teacher!)

[Arglebargle]

music theory is fine. but too often those that promote it come across as arrogant smart asses who belittle everyone who's self-taught.

music theorists also tend to get trapped by their own education. musical works are immediately categorised with implied structures. certain chord progressions will immediately suggest themselves; other progressions will be seen as weak.

and i've seen plenty of classically trained session musos who are absolutely brilliant players, but are also completely imprisoned by their education and simply can't write original material.

You are SO right.

This whole topic is really great, I've only read 2 pages but I'm going to read the whole thing eventually.