post-Muzys: Jo's three questions

[lepwisk]

Hello all,

I thought I'd start a thread in answer to the three main questions Jo has asked on his new Mutools website. To quote:

1) So does it make sense to develop another sequencer-host?
2) If so, what should it look like, how should it be structured?
3) Maybe it's better to only develop synth and effect plugins?

Here are my thoughts. I look forward to all of yours as well. Hopefully, this will help Jo figure out where to go next.

1) YES. I believe it definitely makes sense to develop another sequencer-host. One of Muzys's main strengths was its integrated design and workflow. IMHO, no other sequencer-host (at least on the Mac side of things) even comes close, especially when it comes to live use. In this, I most definitely share ExitZero's opinion. For the Mac there is room in the marketplace for an app that combines a straightforward interface, VST/AU hosting, audio playback and transformation AND excellent MIDI sequencing tools. Ableton Live seems to be the only app that comes close, but it's a tool more geared towards playback than live creation on the fly. Despite the fact that the most recent version of Muzys is now over two years old, I still have yet to find a tool that is a simple, elegant, easy-to-use, creative, and productive. If Muzys 3.14 was simply ported to OSX, I believe it would be a fantastic app even without any additions. As it is, all I would really like to see is audio disk streaming, AU support, and more mixer channels.

2) Perhaps this sounds simplistic, but I would be profoundly happy if the new app was structured along the same lines as Muzys. One of the Muzys's design strengths was the fact that it did not have any scrolling windows, and kept layered windowing to a minimum. Again, this design philosophy was ideal for live use, as it kept on-screen clutter to a minimum and made the basic elements (MIDI keyboard entry/event list/graphical windows, and Muzynth/Wavelab/Synth Rack/mixing desk) accesssible from single buttons. Very quick, very easy to remember.

One question, though, that only Jo can answer. Did the overall agreement between Jo and the unnamed partner see Jo give up ownership of the code? And does his NDA (assuming it also contains a non-competition clause) mean that he cannot develop an app similar to Muzys?

3) Jo, development of synths and plug-ins is probably a good idea but I would hate to see it be the sole focus of your activities. After all, what host would I use these plugs in?

Hope this helps you Jo.

Cheers, Lewis

[aMUSEd]

A VSTi Musynth would be nice

[muzycian]

Ableton Live seems to be the only app that comes close, but it's a tool more geared towards playback than live creation on the fly.

What do you mean?
Can you elaborate on this?

And does his NDA (assuming it also contains a non-competition clause) mean that he cannot develop an app similar to Muzys?

I can develop an app similar to Muzys

I'm researching for a concept, and estimating the inevitable amount of time needed to dev it.

I was a fan of muzys too, and so a next seq-host would probably reincarnate certain concepts of it.

But i don't want to go for it in a blind way. It also must be commercially realistic (no income->no resources->no more independent r&d)

So i'll take the time needed to research things.

And to read & process all your feedback. Thanks for that, always interesting

[lepwisk]

Ableton Live seems to be the only app that comes close, but it's a tool more geared towards playback than live creation on the fly.

What do you mean?
Can you elaborate on this?

OK. But as I've only briefly demo'ed Live I'm sure I'll be missing a lot of its functionalities, and I'll be raising the ire of many Live devotees, so apologies in advance...

My sense of Live is that it is an app where you load up a bunch of audio files/loops (and now simple MIDI sequences), arrange them how you like, and select and deselect them on the fly. I know there are a lot of real-time effects, so the audio can be transformed, but still this seems more like playback to me.

In Muzys, with the core of it being an elegant sequencer, I can change the patterns on the fly - edit them (add or delete notes, change note lengths, change velocity, etc.), make the loop lengths longer or shorter, reallocate parts to another MIDI player or VSTi or audio part (or double the part using another player), etc. I can also record new parts on the fly. In other words, I can substantially change the track WHILE I'm performing with it (again, I'm thinking about it's on-stage use). This flexibility is greatly valued!

Hope this helps, Lewis

[dougsyo]

A VSTi Musynth would be nice

Seconded (-: I asked about this about three months after Muzys3 came out

Things that would need fixed in Muzys (that I can remember): recording to disk rather than RAM-based. On the other hand, Muzys had a much better MIDI editor than its main competition in that time frame/price range.

Unfortunately, that price point has become much more cluttered with Cakewalk's new offerings, features in EnergyXT, etc.

Doug

[loophead]

My sense of Live is that it is an app where you load up a bunch of audio files/loops (and now simple MIDI sequences), arrange them how you like, and select and deselect them on the fly. I know there are a lot of real-time effects, so the audio can be transformed, but still this seems more like playback to me.


Hope this helps, Lewis

Uhm... not a smart fellow are you ? Maybe you should look twice before crossing the street. Didn't your parents ever teach you that ?

Folks should not spout off as if the have knowledge which they do not in fact possess.

[pljones]

Given the fun I'm having with sfz format, maybe something radically different from Muzys like a sequencer/host scripting language would be of some use. I don't know what's out there already in this sphere (I've heard of Csound but never seen it). But I really do find a text-based user interface very productive compared with most GUIs. (I include many more things in "text-based user interface" than just a scrolling command line - IDEs, etc. - so long as there's no overly intrusive attempt to hide the text . That's why I still edit my HTML by hand...)

Admittedly, this tends to make me think "batch oriented" rather than "online" in terms of workflow - edit, run, edit, run, IYSWIM.

The way around that is to provide a "control surface" where everything is recordable (into script), automatable (from script) and MIDI-responsive. So you can throw some ideas, get them up on screen and tweak, saving the changes as you go, then tidy up back in text.

[kuniklo]

OK. But as I've only briefly demo'ed Live I'm sure I'll be missing a lot of its functionalities, and I'll be raising the ire of many Live devotees, so apologies in advance...

I think you need to take a closer look at Live. It's specifically designed to allow Live music creation and excels at all the things you describe as weaknesses.

Personally I think the sequencer market is going to be virtually impossible for a one-man coding team to crack at this point, especially if you have ambitions beyond the niche markets things like XT currently enjoy. It seems like it's still possible for solo synth/effect developers to compete though, and there's certainly room for improvments and innovations there, although it seems like that market is getting more competitive all the time too.

[lepwisk]

Uhm... not a smart fellow are you ? Maybe you should look twice before crossing the street. Didn't your parents ever teach you that ?

Folks should not spout off as if the have knowledge which they do not in fact possess.

I did qualify my comments as impressions, and I asked for apologies in advance if they were incorrect. And do you have any exxperience with Muzys? Can you make any effective comparisons? I very much doubt it. And I would hardly call my comments "spouting off". And no, my parents didn't teach me a thing. I, in fact, have no parents, and was raised by a pack of wolves in the Ontario backcountry. So there.

But seriously, rather than insult me why not offer some positive criticism as kuniklo did?

And nonetheless, I stand by my assessment that MIDI editing on Muzys is still better than that offered in Live. So... a two year old app coded by a single person is still more effective than the current state of the art?

[Sicklecell666]

[kuniklo]

And nonetheless, I stand by my assessment that MIDI editing on Muzys is still better than that offered in Live. So... a two year old app coded by a single person is still more effective than the current state of the art?

MIDI editing in Live *is* pretty crude compared to a lot of other hosts, although I'm not familiar with Muzys. It's been enhanced a bit in Live 5, but it's still quite simple next to something like Logic or Cubase. It's adequate for my needs and its simplicity is an asset in some ways because it also makes it quick, but it's the other aspects of Live that make it so efficient and fun, IMO.

Edit: Whoa! 1000th post!

[kovacs]

And do you have any exxperience with Muzys? Can you make any effective comparisons? I very much doubt it.

I'll chip in here. I tried out Muzys but found it horrible. I have subscribed to Computer Music for years and I have tried several of their tutorials were CM Muzys is involved and I never liked the program.

And nonetheless, I stand by my assessment that MIDI editing on Muzys is still better than that offered in Live. So... a two year old app coded by a single person is still more effective than the current state of the art?

No. You apparently have not tried Live that much. I use Live for composing (usually without loops except those I make myself). I use it for recording guitar, and playing samples with my keyboard. For me it is my main sequencer, with FL Studio as my #2. Before Live 4 it was the other way round. Live 5 looks to revolutionize the sequencer market again.

For Muzys, I would suggest NOT trying to compete with Live. Look at Tracktion and Energy XT instead. Tracktion may have priced itself out of the competitive position it had with the price hike for T2, but since it comes bundled with a lot of Mackie's products that may not mean much.

Energy XT is probably the best deal around (I am not a customer, I have only tried the demo) but to start from scratch and create something to compete with software like Live, Orion, Project 5, FLS etc with a one-person line-up is not something I'd recommend.

[kovacs]

For the Mac there is room in the marketplace for an app that combines a straightforward interface, VST/AU hosting, audio playback and transformation AND excellent MIDI sequencing tools. Ableton Live seems to be the only app that comes close, but it's a tool more geared towards playback than live creation on the fly.

Your erroneous interpretation of Live is already commented upon so I'll drop that.

But on the Mac there are already several competitors in this market, not only Digital Performer, Live and Tracktion but also Logic Express which is a very good program for the money. Hell, even Garageband is a decent program with MIDI editing and that is almost free.

Porting Muzys to OSX might be a solution for the developer but I think it's too late - there are already very good apps for the OSX platform so the competition is extremely stiff.

I would like to see something like Energy XT for OSX, though.

[lepwisk]

Your erroneous interpretation of Live is already commented upon so I'll drop that.

Much appreciated.

But on the Mac there are already several competitors in this market, not only Digital Performer, Live and Tracktion but also Logic Express which is a very good program for the money. Hell, even Garageband is a decent program with MIDI editing and that is almost free.

Porting Muzys to OSX might be a solution for the developer but I think it's too late - there are already very good apps for the OSX platform so the competition is extremely stiff.

I would like to see something like Energy XT for OSX, though.

I see where you are going, and agree with you somewhat. But Muzys was never really meant to compete with full-on studio sequencers like Logic, DP, Cubase, or the like. These apps are far too involved... and would you ever really want to take one of them onto stage with you to perform? If so, brave fellow!

Muzys's original task (even going back to the MBoom days) was as a sequencer designed for live use. Audio processing features and VST implementation were not added until pretty late in its development. Whereas Live sort of underwent the reverse, with MIDI sequencing added to an app that was initially designed for audio sequencing. I guess what I'm saying is that it is probably not really appropriate to compare the two, and as such I don't think they would really be in direct competition with each other.

So it's really something like Traktion that come the closest to Muzys's workflow and interface, and thus is probably a better app to compare, although my brief look at the EnergyXT site suggests that it too shares some similarities. AFAIC, an app that could compete with these would be more than welcome.

I also agree that porting Muzys to OSX would be a good idea (and probably easier than coding a new app), and that it is probably too late. But I don't think this is because the market is too competetive. Rather I doubt this is feasible given Jo's contractual obligations to his silent partner.

[kovacs]

For the record, I listed Logic *Express*, not Logic. My point was really just to show that there are plenty of choices on the OSX platform already, and the market is much, much smaller and as such untenable for a one-man operation.

I think the market *is* too competitive - if you add Garageband, for example, into the mix (or even Audacity while we're at it) there isn't that much of a market left. But - I am ignorant of the amount of pre-OSX people who actually use Muzys so take my analysis with a huge pinch of salt.

I am a PC DAW/Mac laptop user so I tend to use tools that are available for both platforms.