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Your turn...
Rant on music theory ignorance.
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- KVRAF
- 2548 posts since 7 Jul, 2003 from Huntington, WV
Well, I can do it in 1 hour.
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Your turn...
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Your turn...
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- KVRist
- 209 posts since 31 Dec, 2004
nuffink,
You're right, I am a teenager and have my whole life ahead of me to achieve things that you can never even dream of in that tiny brain of yours, which, apparently didn't increase in size as you've aged. Who are you? What have you done? You are a nothing (no need to underline that in your screen name) and you did nothing. A friendly reminder: and you have no time to do anything. You're jealous of me because of the above mentioned facts and use this board as an emotional outlet. By the way, at your age you should serve as an example for the youth and you, gran-pa, are a BAD BAD gran-pa.
P.S. You, my friend, should consult a professional, and get a life instead of wasting the little time you have left by putting down innocent teenagers. After all-it's not my fault you need help. (I apologize if you are mentally handicapped, so please don't interpret my comments as prejudice against the mentally ill or any other minority groups.)
Thank you.
You're right, I am a teenager and have my whole life ahead of me to achieve things that you can never even dream of in that tiny brain of yours, which, apparently didn't increase in size as you've aged. Who are you? What have you done? You are a nothing (no need to underline that in your screen name) and you did nothing. A friendly reminder: and you have no time to do anything. You're jealous of me because of the above mentioned facts and use this board as an emotional outlet. By the way, at your age you should serve as an example for the youth and you, gran-pa, are a BAD BAD gran-pa.
P.S. You, my friend, should consult a professional, and get a life instead of wasting the little time you have left by putting down innocent teenagers. After all-it's not my fault you need help. (I apologize if you are mentally handicapped, so please don't interpret my comments as prejudice against the mentally ill or any other minority groups.)
Thank you.
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- addled muppet weed
- 111320 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass
sontrinh80 wrote: one good measure of a good song is that it sounds good rearranged for different instruments.
guess you didnt suffer the g4 version
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
did you stomp up the stairs and slam your door after that...netsound wrote:nuffink,
You're right, I am a teenager and have my whole life ahead of me to achieve things that you can never even dream of in that tiny brain of yours, which, apparently didn't increase in size as you've aged. Who are you? What have you done? You are a nothing (no need to underline that in your screen name) and you did nothing. A friendly reminder: and you have no time to do anything. You're jealous of me because of the above mentioned facts and use this board as an emotional outlet. By the way, at your age you should serve as an example for the youth and you, gran-pa, are a BAD BAD gran-pa.
P.S. You, my friend, should consult a professional, and get a life instead of wasting the little time you have left by putting down innocent teenagers. After all-it's not my fault you need help. (I apologize if you are mentally handicapped, so please don't interpret my comments as prejudice against the mentally ill or any other minority groups.)
Thank you.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRian
- 672 posts since 28 Jul, 2004
That is actually not true...when you sit down and play some of those songs, you'll see and hear correct theory being used.
Hendrix knew that a blues pattern was I-IV-V, because he used it, and in many different keys with lots of variations.
Same with the rockabilly guys. If they didn't play I-IV verses, they'd get boo'd off the stage. They knew the theory that applied to their genre as well as Bach knew how to use a major 7th cadence, or Coltrane knew how to blow the shit out of a II-V-I.[/quote]
Yes, but did they know it intellectually or just know in their gut that it sounded "right"? I wasn't implying they didn't know what sounded right. Only that they never took music theory in school. That certainly doesn't mean that they didn't pick up the rudiments of it along the way though.
Peace,
G.
Hendrix knew that a blues pattern was I-IV-V, because he used it, and in many different keys with lots of variations.
Same with the rockabilly guys. If they didn't play I-IV verses, they'd get boo'd off the stage. They knew the theory that applied to their genre as well as Bach knew how to use a major 7th cadence, or Coltrane knew how to blow the shit out of a II-V-I.[/quote]
Yes, but did they know it intellectually or just know in their gut that it sounded "right"? I wasn't implying they didn't know what sounded right. Only that they never took music theory in school. That certainly doesn't mean that they didn't pick up the rudiments of it along the way though.
Peace,
G.
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- KVRer
- 12 posts since 5 Nov, 2004
no i havent heard it but when you strip away the flashy stuff and play a song just on piano or a guitar, it should be able to stand on its own.guess you didnt suffer the g4 version
did you stomp up the stairs and slam your door after that... Rolling Eyes
anyway, sure people can make good music without music theory but man.. certainly not anyone on this board that i've heard so far. i wont say any names but all their songs sound alike, they can't tell their singing is out of tune, etc. it all comes down to talent i guess but id rather listen to an untalented person who stays in key than an untalented person just 'jamming' .. its offensively cacophonic..
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- KVRist
- 492 posts since 26 Feb, 2003 from Vancouver BC
Still waiting to hear your material, netsound... alla your balloon juice will make much more sense when properly contextualized.
You *do* have some songs for us to hear, doncha?
K
You *do* have some songs for us to hear, doncha?
K
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- KVRAF
- 2028 posts since 18 Mar, 2004 from New York, N.Y.
I think one of the barriers in this discussion is that anti-theorists think that learning theory is such a huge undertaking. There are various levels, some people take it to extremes, but for most modern styles of music it boils down to two or three 5-8 note scales, major/minor chords. With some eagerness to learn, you can have a whole lot of theory down in a few weeks.geoffrey wrote: Yes, but did they know it intellectually or just know in their gut that it sounded "right"? I wasn't implying they didn't know what sounded right. Only that they never took music theory in school. That certainly doesn't mean that they didn't pick up the rudiments of it along the way though.
Peace,
G.
Jimi went a whole lot farther than rudiments. The real giveaway that he knew his stuff is his live solos. He could improvise masterfully in the given key of any song with ease.
People forget that just 15 years ago, every single public elementary school in the U.S. had required music classes. You had to learn an instrument, treble clef, and how to sing a major scale. Jimi most certainly had some schooling at least.
And even so, being self-taught is completely valid. If you learned that a mixolydian scale sounds good over a 7th chord from a guitar magazine or a professor, it really doesn't matter, especially if you apply that knowledge to the music that you make.
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- KVRAF
- 2327 posts since 13 Apr, 2004 from Vancouver, Canada
Wow! You must be a blast at sleep-overs and birthday parties!netsound wrote:nuffink,
You're right, I am a teenager and have my whole life ahead of me to achieve things that you can never even dream of in that tiny brain of yours, which, apparently didn't increase in size as you've aged. Who are you? What have you done? You are a nothing (no need to underline that in your screen name) and you did nothing. A friendly reminder: and you have no time to do anything. You're jealous of me because of the above mentioned facts and use this board as an emotional outlet. By the way, at your age you should serve as an example for the youth and you, gran-pa, are a BAD BAD gran-pa.
P.S. You, my friend, should consult a professional, and get a life instead of wasting the little time you have left by putting down innocent teenagers. After all-it's not my fault you need help. (I apologize if you are mentally handicapped, so please don't interpret my comments as prejudice against the mentally ill or any other minority groups.)
Thank you.
Do you throw these types of tantrums when people disagree with you about which telletubby is the best?
I'd love to hear a sample of your tallent someday... best make it soon though, I fear my hearing and vision and mental faculties are already on the downward spiral... Oh wait... you never said you had any tallent... Only the potential for it.
Hell... I still have the potential to run a country some day... Doesn't mean that'll happen either.
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
OK, here's a (rather silly perhaps) example of how theory knowledge could probably get in your way (while perhaps being useful at the same time)
Let's assume we are in *whatever* key. Now we want to modulate (or go back) to another key, say C major.
For someone with theoretic knowledge the most obvious thing would be using a dominant chord of some sorts.
First choice in this case would be any G7 stuff (G7, G7 altered, G7sus4, depending on the mood).
Second best choice might be substitutes, such as Db7 (perhaps "mellowed" by making it j7 instead of 7), probably Bmin7/b5 (which actually is just a G7/9 inversion).
Third best choice perhaps would be "derivatives" of those, such as a Bb7. Or some IImin7 chord to avoid too much dominant tension.
Etc... the point being that there's a more or less limited choice of "properly explainable" chords leading back to our C major, at least when following standard western music theory "rules".
As a theoretically trained person, would I think about using an F#°7 at all? No way. At least it wouldn't be among any of my "best bets".
Now, and that's the interesting point: With all my theory knowledge I might have found a "good" solution allready, so there's high chances I wouldn't look any further. As a result I might come up with something that has allready been used a thousand times before.
Someone without this knowledge would probably just finger around on his/her keyboard or guitar and end up with some "Heck, that chord is sounding great" (not even knowing it was a more or less completely unrelated Ebmin7 or whatever). It might take more time to get there, it might take less time - just as usual in a trial and error scenario.
If this example happened in a situation where quick results were required, theory would've probably helped me out to get the job done effectively.
If it happened in something like a "brainstorming" period during song writing, theory might've limited my number of choices - still "proper" sounding results, yet nothing revolutionary.
And from my own experience I can tell you that all that "learn the stuff, then forget about it" statements just don't apply all too well. My brain cells just kinda *force* me to try the G7 as the first choice. Hell, on a guitar my fingers would even finger it almost automatically. You can't just forget about proper conditioning all that easily.
Oh, here's another example that just came to my mind:
There's the more or less famous "Let Love Rule" from Lenny Kravitz (one of my all time greatest songs, btw).
The "plain" chorus harmonies go I, II, IV, I.
Now, when the chorus kicks back in after the sax solo, the harmonies are I, bIII (!), IV, I all of a sudden.
I can't find any theoretical "rules" explaining why this would cause the (IMO) dramatic effect of this. Well, maybe one could somewhat explain it, but it'd be a rather weird stretch, and it'd be way beyond the point anyways, as Mr. Kravitz certainly didn't think about any theoretical rules when composing it.
For me, this particular change is THE orgasmic thing in the song - and no theoretic knowledge would help me getting there at all.
As said before, theoretic knowledge does help me to communicate with other trained musicians, it also does help me to make my living, further I can use it for quick results when arranging things... and so on.
But, and that's my (personal) bottomline: It doesn't really help my creativity, it could even get in the way sometimes.
Let's assume we are in *whatever* key. Now we want to modulate (or go back) to another key, say C major.
For someone with theoretic knowledge the most obvious thing would be using a dominant chord of some sorts.
First choice in this case would be any G7 stuff (G7, G7 altered, G7sus4, depending on the mood).
Second best choice might be substitutes, such as Db7 (perhaps "mellowed" by making it j7 instead of 7), probably Bmin7/b5 (which actually is just a G7/9 inversion).
Third best choice perhaps would be "derivatives" of those, such as a Bb7. Or some IImin7 chord to avoid too much dominant tension.
Etc... the point being that there's a more or less limited choice of "properly explainable" chords leading back to our C major, at least when following standard western music theory "rules".
As a theoretically trained person, would I think about using an F#°7 at all? No way. At least it wouldn't be among any of my "best bets".
Now, and that's the interesting point: With all my theory knowledge I might have found a "good" solution allready, so there's high chances I wouldn't look any further. As a result I might come up with something that has allready been used a thousand times before.
Someone without this knowledge would probably just finger around on his/her keyboard or guitar and end up with some "Heck, that chord is sounding great" (not even knowing it was a more or less completely unrelated Ebmin7 or whatever). It might take more time to get there, it might take less time - just as usual in a trial and error scenario.
If this example happened in a situation where quick results were required, theory would've probably helped me out to get the job done effectively.
If it happened in something like a "brainstorming" period during song writing, theory might've limited my number of choices - still "proper" sounding results, yet nothing revolutionary.
And from my own experience I can tell you that all that "learn the stuff, then forget about it" statements just don't apply all too well. My brain cells just kinda *force* me to try the G7 as the first choice. Hell, on a guitar my fingers would even finger it almost automatically. You can't just forget about proper conditioning all that easily.
Oh, here's another example that just came to my mind:
There's the more or less famous "Let Love Rule" from Lenny Kravitz (one of my all time greatest songs, btw).
The "plain" chorus harmonies go I, II, IV, I.
Now, when the chorus kicks back in after the sax solo, the harmonies are I, bIII (!), IV, I all of a sudden.
I can't find any theoretical "rules" explaining why this would cause the (IMO) dramatic effect of this. Well, maybe one could somewhat explain it, but it'd be a rather weird stretch, and it'd be way beyond the point anyways, as Mr. Kravitz certainly didn't think about any theoretical rules when composing it.
For me, this particular change is THE orgasmic thing in the song - and no theoretic knowledge would help me getting there at all.
As said before, theoretic knowledge does help me to communicate with other trained musicians, it also does help me to make my living, further I can use it for quick results when arranging things... and so on.
But, and that's my (personal) bottomline: It doesn't really help my creativity, it could even get in the way sometimes.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 1530 posts since 20 Apr, 2005 from southsubchicago
I think there is a differance between learning some of the basics of music like the staff, treble and bass clef, major scale, etc and learning theory... theory in my mind uses the absolute basics (like here is the alphabet) as a starting point and then gets into how chords are built, etc...in school they get you to memorize the alphabet (with a song, ironicly) so you can take that info and build words, sentences, etc... i had music class in elementary school as a requirement and learned next to nothing; not having an instrument (i.e. keyboard) in front of you to work out the stuff you're learning leaves you pretty much lost, it's just an idea... the best they could do was hand out percussion, it usually ended up with some kid making a rip in the tamborine skin with their pencil....we sang songs, some kids were better than others, but no real theory, or music in general was learned in my experience...mind you, my experience, but they did indeed try to teach us something about music....jplanet wrote:People forget that just 15 years ago, every single public elementary school in the U.S. had required music classes. You had to learn an instrument, treble clef, and how to sing a major scale. Jimi most certainly had some schooling at least.geoffrey wrote: Yes, but did they know it intellectually or just know in their gut that it sounded "right"? I wasn't implying they didn't know what sounded right. Only that they never took music theory in school. That certainly doesn't mean that they didn't pick up the rudiments of it along the way though.
Peace,
G.
.
in the states it is my observation that we don't have a general culture of playing instruments/learning music...it has without a doubt been dropped from basic schooling, perhaps some families/ethnic groups have a tradition where it's looked upon as a valuable skill, something positive, but most people think to "play music" means to simply choose a cd or tune the radio to something that reflects their "values"...this ain't real new, but it's getting worse....
i don't think i'm saying anything you all don't know, i just think it's a pretty important point...music is to be consumed, not produced...(in the world i live in anyway)
rg
KVR: come for the music, stay for the polemics and grammar lessons...
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
There, there, poppet. Did the nasty man make you feel small and stupid?netsound wrote:nuffink,
You're right, I am a teenager and have my whole life ahead of me to achieve things that you can never even dream of in that tiny brain of yours, which, apparently didn't increase in size as you've aged. Who are you? What have you done? You are a nothing (no need to underline that in your screen name) and you did nothing. A friendly reminder: and you have no time to do anything. You're jealous of me because of the above mentioned facts and use this board as an emotional outlet. By the way, at your age you should serve as an example for the youth and you, gran-pa, are a BAD BAD gran-pa.
P.S. You, my friend, should consult a professional, and get a life instead of wasting the little time you have left by putting down innocent teenagers. After all-it's not my fault you need help. (I apologize if you are mentally handicapped, so please don't interpret my comments as prejudice against the mentally ill or any other minority groups.)
Thank you.
I doubt you'll ever do anything, little one. You're too proud of your own ignorance. That's ok, the world needs shelf stackers.
Now with improved MIDI jitter!
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- KVRAF
- 2973 posts since 18 Oct, 2004
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- KVRAF
- 2973 posts since 18 Oct, 2004
Okay, here's MY rant on music theory... I'm sure everything I say has been said 1000 times already by other people, so feel free to skip this post.
I know BASIC music theory. I played the violin for many many years, so obviously I have a certain grasp of theory, but when people start getting all hardcore about scales and modes and whatnot, my brain just freezes up. Especially the whole "notation" aspect of theory... it's like, ARRGGHH!
As far as I'm concerned, knowledge of theory and knowledge of practical composition are two very different things. I know some people who fuckin' BREATHE theory, and they say themselves that they don't have the slightest clue where to begin a composition. Others have very little knowledge of theory, but are quite talented at composing. Then you have the theory people who CAN compose, and the theory-less people who can't.
So I think it's a different story for each person... you have to compose in the way you feel most comfortable. I personally make music in a very organic, "theory-less" way. I'm obviously using some theory, but it's not like, "okaaay, I'm currently using <X> progression, so now I need to use <Y> chord here." I find that kind of thought boring; I prefer to kind of wing everything and see where I end up! Maybe it's not the "best" way to compose, but it suits me fine.
That's not to say I'm anti-theory... not at all. If it helps you to compose better (or if you just enjoy it), by all means immerse yourself in it. I personally prefer a more intuitive style of songwriting, but that's just my personal preference.
I know BASIC music theory. I played the violin for many many years, so obviously I have a certain grasp of theory, but when people start getting all hardcore about scales and modes and whatnot, my brain just freezes up. Especially the whole "notation" aspect of theory... it's like, ARRGGHH!
As far as I'm concerned, knowledge of theory and knowledge of practical composition are two very different things. I know some people who fuckin' BREATHE theory, and they say themselves that they don't have the slightest clue where to begin a composition. Others have very little knowledge of theory, but are quite talented at composing. Then you have the theory people who CAN compose, and the theory-less people who can't.
So I think it's a different story for each person... you have to compose in the way you feel most comfortable. I personally make music in a very organic, "theory-less" way. I'm obviously using some theory, but it's not like, "okaaay, I'm currently using <X> progression, so now I need to use <Y> chord here." I find that kind of thought boring; I prefer to kind of wing everything and see where I end up! Maybe it's not the "best" way to compose, but it suits me fine.
That's not to say I'm anti-theory... not at all. If it helps you to compose better (or if you just enjoy it), by all means immerse yourself in it. I personally prefer a more intuitive style of songwriting, but that's just my personal preference.