DSP algorithms

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pustekuchen wrote:
There are no "detuning knobs" in a classical symphony orchestra. You know...? :hihi:
And you can be sure: they tuned their instruments perfectly before starting the concert!!! Otherwise the conductor would be very angry and those musicians carriere could find an end quickly that way ...
Except no analogue instrument (including acoustic ones) has perfect tuning. This is most obvious in string instruments like a violin, where the pitch is determined by the where the violinist places his finger, no two violinists are going to hit exactly the same pitch every time, and that's before they start applying vibrato.

It's these small differences in pitch that give the richness you hear in a large orchestra, similarly it's the small differences in pitch between voices in a an analogue synthesizer (that exist even if you haven't applied any intentional detuning) that give the richness that people associate with the unison effect.

Of course in a digital synthesizer you can get perfect pitch matching between voices, but since would result in unvarying phase cancellations between voices it would as somebody has already pointed out be no different to simply using a different wavetable... unless there are non linearities in the signal path, where processing two different waveforms in parallel and then mixing them might well sound different to mixing before processing. However though this might be useful for generating certain tones, it certainly wouldn't generate the warmth and movement that most people associate with unison.

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pustekuchen wrote:Unisono is a process or event, not a result of anything.
Okay - so you're more interested in spending additional CPU time so you can say "real unisono" rather than what the actual sound is. Good to know.
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Don't do it my way.

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Since when is Unisono a messurement or indicator for any CPU performance? Unisono is not a term of digital audio processing. So that definition (what Unisono finally is) has absolutely nothing to do with any performance parameters. That merely *may be* a side effect, when calculated with DSP.

(By the way, if you use simple waveplayer oscillators, so probably the CPU usage with Real Unisono may be smaller than with that ominous *to develop* "Unisono Effect" ...)


Your definitions suck completely. Obviously your arguments against me are all eat up now. But you woun't stop, right?

Really kinda senseless to discuss any further.

.

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pustekuchen wrote:(By the way, if you use simple waveplayer oscillators, so probably the CPU usage with Real Unisono may be smaller than with that ominous *to develop* "Unisono Effect" ...)
I'm not developing anything. You've convinced me I don't know anything about DSP. I'm a comic book artist.
Your definitions suck completely.
I'm not defining anything; I'm asking for your definitions.
Obviously your arguments against me are all eat up now.


I didn't have arguments against you, I had questions to try and understand your position.
Really kinda senseless to discuss any further.
Here, however, I agree with you completely.
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Don't do it my way.

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so, did anyone find some source code, then ? :scared:

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Hmm, maybe http://www.dspdimension.com/ ?!? I think Stephan's code is still the best reference around...

But d'oh, that's only good for some sort of virtual detune, it won't add more signals to your source :hihi:

;) Urs

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damn :-(


:hihi:

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scuzzphut wrote:so, did anyone find some source code, then ? :scared:
no source code yet. but, I found out that the 80s way of implementing ensemble/unison external boxes was modulatinig delay lines togetrher with comb filters. The details are still unclear. But we'll sure find out. My approach however can be quite different.

I know its now much but it can still help.

cheers

//edited spelling

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Maybe some more explaination:

there are two ways that the ear can differentiate between a single voice and a ensemble of voices (assuming they are not moving):

1. the fact that in nature things sound never identical (due to the complex and analog nature of everything natural). Assume two guitars playing the same note: In the real world they will never sound identical.

2. The second thing is that the sources are never on the same spot. There must be a phisical difference in their locations.

The 80s guys (with almost no DSP power) did it this way:

They used delay lines to simulate space between voices.

They used Comb filters for the detuning effect(this point is still unclear to me).

combined them as:

FOR N_VOICES
DELAY(COMBFILTER(INPUTSIGNAL, LFO1, ....), LFO2, ...);
DO

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The whole trick is to modulate the delay line's length - the output will amount to the same thing as sampling the output and playing it back at a different (and most likely varying, unless you somehow have room for an arbitrarily long delay) pitch. A nice way to make this sound decent is to take several delay lines, the length of each delay slowly moving back and forth between a minimum and maximum delay at a random rate (that you change occasionally) - practically of course you'd implement it as one delay line with several taps.

This (dry, then wet) is what it sounds like on a single sawtooth oscillator playing a crappy test pattern.

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Galleoneer wrote:the 80s way of implementing ensemble/unison external boxes was modulatinig delay lines togetrher with comb filters.
A delay line is a comb filter - or rather, dry signal plus delayed signal is a comb filter.

at least that's what i heard. i don't really know anything about dsp. comic book artist, me.
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Don't do it my way.

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My feeling from being a musician who has played in ensembles in unison is that the "feeling" of ensemble is the musicians trying to play intune with each other and constantly adjusting to the people around them who are constantly adjusting to the people around them! vibrato as a cover up when all else fails! It's all about feeling though and that's what makes it fat!

I'm sure this could be implemented in code, autotune with a little bit of random number generation!

It is the trying to tune to your neighbours that gives the feeling of ensemble and communication though!

Joe (after the pub!)

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I wish I could read German though!

Great thread!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Me dunno dsp either. In real life I am human.

But I found this decription and thats exactly the point that confuses me, too.

So I think they mean Combfiltering here in a musical way not the `single delay element' point of view.

I try to think of it more like a musician. By combfilter is maybe meant some construct with multiple banpass filters that have different freqs. But I think this combfilter is applied extra and before the classical delaying occures.

/\.../\.../\.../\.../\.../\.../\.../\.../\.../\...

Somethig like this. where the frequencies of all this bandpass thingies are modulated by lfos.
Borogove wrote:
Galleoneer wrote:the 80s way of implementing ensemble/unison external boxes was modulatinig delay lines togetrher with comb filters.
A delay line is a comb filter - or rather, dry signal plus delayed signal is a comb filter.

at least that's what i heard. i don't really know anything about dsp. comic book artist, me.

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I am human and I do know a bit about DSP, well comparatively little compared to some on this forum but nontheless some!
well quite a lot really!!
maybe!

Joe

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