KVR Audio

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:52 pm

...which leads to...

Can anybody explain why certain enharmonic spellings are preferred in certain places.

For instance. (Tritone) Substitute dominants are invariably spelled flat in theory books but I've no idea why flat rather than sharp.

duncanparsons · Post by **duncanparsons** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:00 pm

bloody-mindedness comes to mind..

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:05 pm

Google came to mine.

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:06 pm

This helps...

"The rules as to which spelling is preferred are somewhat subtle, and beyond the scope of this book."

Rune · Post by **Rune** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:16 pm

It depends on your hearing. To me there is a whole lot of difference when transposing a half note up or down. In fact, I transpose my Clavinova piano as a rehearsal technique. This is because I can hear what 'position' my hands should be in next and if it is a tune I know well by ear, this hand-positioning may tend to be a bit coarse, resulting in more wrong keys pressed. But if I transpose the keyboard I get sort of confused, and it forces me to be 100% sure before I press any key. This is the case no matter if I transpose 1 half note or 6 half notes.

I'm not claiming that I have absolute hearing, but when it comes to the piano I have no trouble identifying the notes being played. I think every key has it's own timbre. It's very individual how each key is percepted, and many don't feel any difference at all. Many composers assigned a feeling/mood to different keys, but the assigned moods are often very different among the different composers.

The theme in Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody 2 simply cannot be played in Cm instead of C#m. It would simply kill it's ethnic, mysterious feel. (Not to mention the piece would be almost impossible to play in a "simple" key as Cm

) There are severla other examples as well. (Grieg's piano concert in A minor, Beethoven's Eroica...)

And again, this is of course individually percepted.

Stupid American Pig · Post by **Stupid American Pig** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:21 pm

Well my piano was stretch tuned last time, so the different keys do sound slightly different. It depends on the piano as well, certain keys resonate well with my cheap upright, some sound muddy and thick...

fitch · Post by **fitch** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:23 pm

it's a nice key to play piano in... all the black keys

LOL

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:59 pm

The way a note is spelled has to do with it's function in relation to the key. This is probably a sorry example, but it might help. Imagine you had a girl with both an older brother and a younger brother. She would be both a younger sister or an older sister depending on who you were relating her to. Keep in mind that the scales always (well almost always) contain each letter of the musical alphabet. So there will always be some kind of A, some kind of B, some kind of C and so on. There will also generally be only one kind of A,B,C etc. So for example you generally* have only one kind of D in a scale not a both a D and a Db.

Ok so if you start building a Db major scale you will have some kind of D, some kind of E, F,G etc.

D E F G A B C D

The important thing is how the notes relate in distance one to another. The major scale pattern of distances going up is:

................................................Half Step
........................................Whole Step
................................Whole Step
........................Whole Step
................Half Step
........Whole Step
Whole Step

Notice there are 8 scale letters but only 7 steps between them (intervals). Just like you have 5 fingers on a hand but only 4 spaces between them.

Ok so building up

What kind of D would you have in Db? uh well a Db. What kind of E is a whole step above that? Eb (You wouldn't say D# because D# is not a kind of E). You build on up following this pattern and you get.

Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db

Hope that helped a bit

* some minor scales are diffent going up and coming down

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:13 pm

Rock,

Good explaination, thanks for that.

My confusion is somewhat more chord specific.

I'm composing in Cmaj. The substitute Dominant always seems to be spelled Db7 as opposed to C#7 and I don't know why.

Hink · Post by **Hink** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:24 pm

nuffink wrote:Rock,

Good explaination, thanks for that.

My confusion is somewhat more chord specific.

I'm composing in Cmaj. The substitute Dominant always seems to be spelled Db7 as opposed to C#7 and I don't know why.

Cause you're flatting (deminishing) the D as opposed sharping (augmenting) the C to fit the piece...

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:25 pm

Hink wrote:Cause you're flatting (deminishing) the D as opposed sharping (augmenting) the C to fit the piece...

I am?

duncanparsons · Post by **duncanparsons** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:30 pm

That might be todo with some jazz stuff where flat 9ths are used (flat 9th of C being Db).

I notice that Dominant of Cmaj is G7 (GBDF), so using Db7 (DbFAbB) as a substitute seems odd, since it is altering the fifth of the G7, and adding a b9.

Still, our's is not to reason why, and all that!

DSP

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:32 pm

A chord should be spelled according to function and without seeing the song it's really not possible to know the function.

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:33 pm

duncanparsons wrote:That might be todo with some jazz stuff where flat 9ths are used (flat 9th of C being Db).

Possibly. However the subst Dom usually takes the lydian dominant mode, which has a natural 9th.

Rock · Post by **Rock** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:36 pm

I can say this... in the key of C having a chord built on C# would be uncommon.

Composing in Db key?