Why don't you like rap/hiphop ?

[ultimo]

Further, producing a pop/hip hop record is downright cheap compared to other genres, since a capable producer can make do with a drum machine, PC and handful of synths and samplers in a home studio.

Well, are you aiming at the production cost of getting a band in the studio etc, or producing a hip-hop track itself....

Costs can be divided in diffrent things... a couple a years ago when people couldn't multi-sample their instrumensts or those virtual instruments wheren't available. A serious hip-hop producer bought (rare)records everyday. Getting more samples, more soundmodules etc... for ONE person is allot of money too you know...

[Stupid American Pig]

but still much less than paying 125 bucks an hour for studio time plus paying session musicians.

I dont think their is anything negative about hip hop being cheap to produce, that is one of the reasons it was able to even take off in the first place.

[ultimo]

I understand, thats the beauty of Hip-hop... You can put a street beatbox with an MC on wax/LP or composing for orchestral with a funk band and MC on cd.
I, for instance, pay musicians to sample them independent in my home-studio or in the studio if it must have more quality.

[Jace-BeOS]

Well, to bring it back on topic... (I know I'm late to the thread)

I don't like rap and hiphop for mostly the same reason I don't like techno, dance, trance, goa, etc... That reason is: all I ever hear is the stuff that sucks and that leaves me with a predisposition to dislike others in the same categories/genre. So I stop listening and I ignore anything listed in those genres and categories.

Yeah, not fair, I know. It's just human nature. Even I fall prey to that sometimes Being aware of it is the first step to recovery!

Knowing this, I am sometimes surprised to hear someone classify something I like as belonging to one of these genres that I have a predisposition against. For me, if I like something, I like it independently of what other people think it is or should be classified as.

I don't ever look for music by genre. I tried. What I found was that there's too much crap under one umbrella (it turns out that I don't actually like "true" industrial, apparently... whatever). That's true for all genres. The good stuff is out there but is kind of like not being able to see the tree for the forrest... Take the absolute trash remixes of Depeche Mode's "Home" on the "Home" single. That's how I got exposed to such genres. I have had people who view themselves as true lovers of such genres tell me that the stuff I reacted badly to IS crap and they recommended alternatives. Sadly, if I can't have a large taste of [insert truely good stuff here] for free I don't get into things in those genres and I don't risk purchasing something to "demo it." It has to be something I really expect to listen to repeatedly before I buy it and put it in my collection.

So, I have to hope to be exposed to new stuff via the people who listen to or create the stuff I listen to. If you like Nine Inch Nails and Depeche Mode and Sleater Kinny, I might like some of the other stuff that you like. You might get me into something I didn't know about that I would love to have in my collection. Through others is how I get into new things. Rarely do I find things on my own (but sometimes I do - go check out http://www.polopop.com because she's GREAT) and even more rarely do I find stuff I like just by browsing a genre on a forum or web community.

Structurally, I find the rap and hiphop's "musical" content to be stale, disinterestingly repetitive, simple and built on cliched techniques and "me too" isms. I do not like sampling as has been used in these genres. "A Nation of Millions" (?) is an example of a hiphop album (which, hello, when it came out was called a "rap" album) which is respected and used as a reference and standard for good work in that genre. I've heard some of the content and most of it goes too far for me. Too much of other artists' work is used and the underlying nature of the "creation" is really the manipulation of someone else's creation. Not a lot there is new or original. But, it's a reference piece of work and I can't change that. It also is a reason that there are now more specific and strict laws on what is legal sampling and what requires licensing. Good thing.

The subject matter and attitudes expressed in rap and hiphop has frequently been disinteresting to me or offensive to me. I'm not a prude and I have what many people label as "controversial" and "abnormal" opinions and views, so I'm not coming from some asinine right-wing conservative religious nutjob perspective. I just believe in subtlety and well constructed arguments and beauty. Noise and anger can be beauty. Using the word "bitch" 12 times in one track is just narrow use of vocabulary.

Is it more accessible to certain audiences than some of the stuff I listen to? Sure. There are people who HATE the music and films and TV shows I like. They don't like complexity or they don't care to get as deeply into a topic as I. Or they don't like the "pretentious" language.

So be it. This topic is clearly one of opinion and I'm expressing mine. You can totally tell me that Depeche Mode is faggy boy band synth pop eurotrash and Trent Reznor is a pussy sellout and wouldn't know "industrial" if it hit him across the face with a pipe (note: Trent never classified NIN as industrial; the media and the listeners did)... that's fine as that's your opinion. Everyone is entitled to one.

Now, that said, remember that I said I have been told that the stuff I have judged the genres on was crap and that I should listen to [insert quality name here] instead. If I heard [same name] and liked it, I would be loathe to classify it into whatever category or genre it was that people said it belonged to.

One thing I hate the MOST about submitting or talking about my music is the "Genre" tag. I never know what to fill in and I don't think I fit any category. You could listen to my stuff and put me in a category. I'd likely cringe at the choice. But I know people will do it.

Plus, I am sure that I am not the only person who has negative connotations to certain genres and I would hate to turn off a potential listener by pigeon-holing myself into any genre or classification.

Sorry for the long post...

Cheers!

[Jace-BeOS]

... and because I cannot refuse an opportunity to rant... could we PLEASE put a moratorium on funky misspellings and "DJ" in ALL music acts from now on? I have heard stuff from DJ Shadow that I like, but I can't really take it seriously when 9 Billion other people are out there calling themselves DJ This or DJ That.

Cheers,

DJ Supah Wankah B-Fliee In Dah Uni

[dharmawan]

i love hiphop.. 79-2005... i like the party stuff or thoughtful lyrics or jokes lyrics more than gangsta... i dont relate to that..its all about trying to enjoy life at the end of the day

[sposey1969]

Put too many whiners attuned to the same frequency and you will get an astonishing amount of people under the same q factor. Or if you live in the south a 3k rally (kkk).

Now 3k that is a racist year if you ever heard of one!

Hmmmmmmm, I don't know if this has been said yet in this thread, but please don't lump the Southern U.S. Americans into the 3k world. I think you'll find that if you visit the southeastern United States in these days you won't find many 3k supporters around here. Most of us civilized southerners recognize that we are not superior to anyone else; in fact, many of us feel that we owe a great debt to those that our ancestors thought were inferior to us.

Personally, I feel that it is the northern stereotype that has helped perpetuate the myth that southern whites hate southern blacks. Nothing could be farther than the truth. I don't belittle our northern Americans, but I wish that folks would find out for themselves how the truth really is, rather than follow the "conventional wisdom" concerning what they believe to be true.

Yes, there are 3k supporters, but they are few and far between. I personally do not know of any 3k supporters, nor would I associate with them if I did. Humanity is far more important to me than the color of someone's skin. As someone born and raised in Columbia, South Carolina, I will admit that there are many misguided souls out there, but there are so many more of us that welcome the racial diversity that comes from living on our blue planet.

[Katanaman]

I'm a few pages late for this but I'd just like to say something for those that think that it's the old guys who dislike the current state of hip hop...

I'm 17(In fact, I'll only be 17 in a few days)

That said, I can't understand why kids MY AGE like 50 Cent, the Game, Ludacris, etc... No melody, no lyrics, dull rhythms... Their music has got nothing going for them. I personally don't like Britney Spears but I can see why she's popular. It's got rhythm and melody, which makes it immediately accessible. I personally don't like those tarnce songs I keep hearing on the radio but I can see why they're popular. They've got rhythm and a lot of energy. Now hip hop may have rhythm, that's usually the entire basis of the songs. But they're usually just simple kick snare patterns which, by themselves, can't possibly make me get up and dance(IMO, danceable rhythm may just very well be the most important part of pop music) and the melodies accompanying it don't grab me either. Nothing about the songs is actually catchy(you end up recognising the songs because they loop the same thing for 5 minutes, not because they're good). The arrangements are dull. The lyrics and delivery, more often than not, are equally dull. The result is just a big pile of kicks and snares with a bored rapper attaching preset words over it. Of course, that might appeal to some people, as with every genre, but how that appeals to SO MANY people is a mystery to me. I mean, it really does have nothing to offer. A few years ago, Will Smith was huge because Jazzy Jeff's productions were fun, danceable and uplifting. Will's lyrics were funny and also uplifting. It was irresistible music. I can't switch the radio station when "Gettin' Jiggy Wit it" is on. THAT is pop appeal to me - music that nobody, no matter how "badass", can resist. Now it appears that pop accessible music is going underground, for some mysterious reason, and soulless, depressing, half assed music is the cool thing. I can't get it to make sense!!!

Oh, by the way, since you all mention underground rap, underground rap is usually good(and I don't know why it doesn't replace 50 cent in the radios because most of it sounds much more accessible to me), and I am yet to hear UK hip hop I don't like. American mainstream hip hop seems to be the only annoying branch of the genre.

[BONES]

Ulti-Mo'

You know that Ultimo is an inner-city suburb of Sydney, don't you?

People don't really know what impact Hip-Hop had and has on computer-music today...
Thinking about roger Linn/Akai 950, Rhodes, EMU, SL-1200, sampling in general...
Using breakbeatz, Chopping drumsounds out of loops, etcs..
filtering basslines, creating new instruments with samples, hell... composing with samples.

Are you an idiot!?! Do you really think that any of those things were first done by hip-hop idiots? If you do, you need to get out more.

[soulkraka]

hip hop idiots? what a hypocrite.

[jsd]

If you like Nine Inch Nails and Depeche Mode and Sleater Kinny, I might like some of the other stuff that you like. You might get me into something I didn't know about that I would love to have in my collection.

try freezepop and jakalope. google them, they have demo tracks on their web sites. freezepop do bouncy synthpop ala vince clarke-era depeche mode. jakalope is dave ogilvie who worked with reznor for years. also keith hillebrandt who was at nothing studios for a few years just put out a solo album. i like it!

"A Nation of Millions" (?) is an example of a hiphop album (which, hello, when it came out was called a "rap" album) which is respected and used as a reference and standard for good work in that genre. I've heard some of the content and most of it goes too far for me. Too much of other artists' work is used and the underlying nature of the "creation" is really the manipulation of someone else's creation. Not a lot there is new or original. But, it's a reference piece of work and I can't change that. It also is a reason that there are now more specific and strict laws on what is legal sampling and what requires licensing. Good thing.

wow, i totally disagree with this entire paragraph. "nation of millions" is one of the most creative records ever made. it distilled the anger and outrage at was happening in the world down into pure musical chaos. yeah, the whole album is sampled from other sources, but i dare you to name them! most of the time it's collaged together so cleverly that it becomes its own thing.

restrictions on sampling have nothing to do with artistic worth, it's all to do with record companies being stuck in the past and clinging to an outdated model of music publishing and distribution.

Now, that said, remember that I said I have been told that the stuff I have judged the genres on was crap and that I should listen to [insert quality name here] instead. If I heard [same name] and liked it, I would be loathe to classify it into whatever category or genre it was that people said it belonged to.

well, 90% of everything is crap, so any genre by definition is going to be mostly crap.

-jsd-

[Jace-BeOS]

I know I can read it all and see and I can figure it out for myself, but... wow this thread degenerated.

Hmmmmmmm, I don't know if this has been said yet in this thread, but please don't lump the Southern U.S. Americans into the 3k world. I think you'll find that if you visit the southeastern United States in these days you won't find many 3k supporters around here.

Depends on the area, the age and the way you were brought up. Variables that certainly lead to racist bastards in my Northeast area or anywhere else. No, southerners aren't all racist. There is a large number of conservative voting going on there, though. That much is demonstrated by polls and actual vote counts. Conservative does, unfortunately, tie in to such things as limiting the rights of women and minorities (which is a funny word to describe non-caucasians when you're the minority as a caucasian or when you hate being forced into the caucasian "genre" on forms that do not include Italian-American, German-American, Japanese-American along with African American and Hispanic).

Most of us civilized southerners recognize that we are not superior to anyone else; in fact, many of us feel that we owe a great debt to those that our ancestors thought were inferior to us.

You are an enlightened person then. I note that you said "civilized." Thanks for making that point. I have a friend in Ohio. She describes it as living in uncivilized, uncultured, ignorant, racist HELL. That's pretty north. Ignorance knows no borders and knows no ethnicities.

I also wish to point out that posthumous recognition is almost as bad as no recognition. "Many" is a small number when compared to entire populations. It seems to me that most of the south voted Bush to be our King and he has clearly demonstrated what he thinks of equality. Like many Republicans, he seems to think that equality comes through pulling yourself up by your bootstraps... except for those who had everything handed to them by their families... like him... families that built their wealth on things that are now illegal, were illegal at the time, or should be illegal.

Personally, I feel that it is the northern stereotype that has helped perpetuate the myth that southern whites hate southern blacks.

I will readily admit to that being true, as a northerner. For me, it comes from EXPERIENCE. I am shamed to be related to someone from the south who has made blatently racist comments out in the open (I had to leave the room so that I didn't throw things at her ignorant old bitch face). I'm not ashamed of her being from the south. What I'm ashamed of is that she's related to me and that goddamned ignorant.

Nothing could be farther than the truth. I don't belittle our northern Americans, but I wish that folks would find out for themselves how the truth really is, rather than follow the "conventional wisdom" concerning what they believe to be true.

When I was in Ohio for WalterCon, I saw that there were no caucasians doing service jobs. In fact, my Canadian friend pointed it out, telling me that the racism in our country was blatent and gross. The service people were all very nice, but it was clear that there was a sharp class division going on that was heavily focused on race.

I will be visiting Nashville TN in September. I will be exposed to the south firsthand. I, sadly, expect similar things. Sharp divisions. Exclusivities.

Yes, there are 3k supporters, but they are few and far between.

Been reading up on Ohio lately? There are KKK scum walking around in broad daylight and there has been violence and the usual should-be-laughable-if-weren't-so-evil racist behavior. My friend has it in her town, even.

Humanity is far more important to me than the color of someone's skin. As someone born and raised in Columbia, South Carolina, I will admit that there are many misguided souls out there, but there are so many more of us that welcome the racial diversity that comes from living on our blue planet.

You are clearly civilized, educated, rational and kind. I am happy to know of your existance! Cheers to you and those like you! You planning on reproducing?

[Amberience]

I'm listening to The End by The Doors at the moment. Finally realised why I hate hip-hop.

It's just pissin' shit compared to this!!

[james0tucson]

I'm 17(In fact, I'll only be 17 in a few days)

That said, I can't understand why kids MY AGE like 50
Cent, the Game, Ludacris, etc...

People your age are supposed to be developing an entirely new style... one that the 25 year olds won't like, but will eventually be the prevailing idiom.

Get to it.

[Jace-BeOS]

try freezepop and jakalope. google them, they have demo tracks on their web sites. freezepop do bouncy synthpop ala vince clarke-era depeche mode. jakalope is dave ogilvie who worked with reznor for years.

The jakalope website "contest" flash art had me entranced for hours. VERY COOL. The music is interesting, but it lacks something and doesn't work for me. I think it is a little over produced. Too uniform. I face this problem in my own work, so no judgements on the artists, just an asthetic reaction on my part.

I never heard of freezepop, so thanks!

also keith hillebrandt who was at nothing studios for a few years just put out a solo album. i like it!

I've been meaning to listen to samples of that. I keep forgetting to look. Thanks for reminding me!

wow, i totally disagree with this entire paragraph. "nation of millions" is one of the most creative records ever made. it distilled the anger and outrage at was happening in the world down into pure musical chaos. yeah, the whole album is sampled from other sources, but i dare you to name them! most of the time it's collaged together so cleverly that it becomes its own thing.

Hmm. I recognized some. More to the point, I recognized that it WAS a collage. Negativeland have done the same thing on "A big 10-8 Place" and I think it's neat, but it's also not really music. I have issues with it being called music and being called creative... hrm. Tough one. It's controvercial for a reason.

restrictions on sampling have nothing to do with artistic worth, it's all to do with record companies being stuck in the past and clinging to an outdated model of music publishing and distribution.

Yes. And again, no, too. I'd want to be protected from having something "signature" sampled from my work and used as a "signature element" in someone else's work. I think it's good to have some set limitations in place. Just not crazy nutso politics and capitalist pig behaviors on top of it.