Free Clavinet Sample Kit

[hollowsun]

And that's the cinema situation. For TV series, nobody doesn't seem to care any longer at all. It's all GPO, VSL and whatever. Production companies just won't pay orchestras anymore.

And therein lies (part of) the problem.

Despite its importance in a production, the music/soundtrack has always had a low budget. I used to write a lot for TV (like 100 years ago!!!) and getting money out of them was the proverbial 'blood out of a stone' - the catering budget was always far in excess of the music/soundtrack budget!

Back then, I had the monopoly in electronica in my area for TV programmes with my old arsenal of modulars and sequencers, etc., and I did ok but as soon as products like the DX7 and Juno 6 came along, any old twonker was doing it and as soon as the production companies are aware of that, they will economise and and go for the cheapest option, *not* necessarily the best soundtrack!

Now, of course, pretty much anyone can 'sound' impressive with the right tools - with sequencer quantisation and a quality library, a soundtrack can have the 'veneer' of an orchestral score and can be created far more cheaply than getting 'the real thing' in .... and production companies' accountants just love that! I'd like to think that anyone putting together an orchestral score today would much prefer to use 'the real thing' if the budget was there - sadly, however, a production's music is almost inevitably an afterthought that has to be churned out cheaply (and usually at the last minute).

I've just got some first hand comments from a rather famous movie/TV sroring dude who's been teaching at some workshop at the local conservatory.

Yes... a Russian friend of mine knows a top class orchestral composer in Russia who works nights as a security guard just to make ends meet

[Seus Hawkins]

Hollowsun>> I didn't question your own moral at this, or the sampling thing. I just didn't agree with your analogy on expecting things for free etc.

I know you used to give a lot of things away for free and it's ridiculous that you get hate mails now. That is indeed being too selfish and spoiled. Everyone isn't like that as stated though, many people will enjoy them and some will at some time create something free for others. Apart from that, making something for free gives you a lot of attention and if the product is becoming very popular, you could start making commercial stuff.

You probably agree to all or most of this, just didn't seem like it in that earlier post of yours.

Regards

[Failed Muso]

making something for free gives you a lot of attention and if the product is becoming very popular, you could start making commercial stuff.

Have you checked out his site lately ???

[hollowsun]

Hollowsun>> Apart from that, making something for free gives you a lot of attention and if the product is becoming very popular, you could start making commercial stuff.

At which point they walk away and complain that you've sold out


Steve

[griels]

Hmm, I couldn't say exactly where I draw the line, but I doubt that any sample developers are seriously harming the sales of Steinway or Bosendorfer I could probably think of other examples which are significantly detracting from other people's livings - but more actual musicians than the instrument makers themselves.

I couldn't draw any line in the sand and say why I have my "moral" objections to someone sampling a sample based synth, but am quite happy "morally" with someone painstakingly sampling a Bosendorfer (as much as I'd prefer the real thing over an emulation), but that's what my gut instincts tell me.. And then I have distinct "aesthetic" reservations about, say, sampling a digital synth when it could theoretically be reproduced with total accuracy in software (hey... that might actually be on topic ), or painstakingly sampling an acoustic instrument when there will always be that last bit of realism or expressivity missing.. It's easy to get the different sorts of objections mixed up, and almost impossible to make any quantifiable comparisons between the competing moral and aesthetic elements.

And I doubt you'll get anyone who can come up with a hard and fast set of universally agreed guidelines of what's 'right' or 'wrong' in terms of sampling, any more than philosophers will agree on the sound of one hand clapping in the middle of a forest Maybe it's worth trying to get some kind of majority consensus on some issues though... Within the confines of the law (as blurrily defined as it is). Just bear in mind there will always be someone who will object.

[Sascha Franck]

Hmm, I couldn't say exactly where I draw the line, but I doubt that any sample developers are seriously harming the sales of Steinway or Bosendorfer I could probably think of other examples which are detracting from other people's livings - but more the actual musicians than the instrument makers themselves.

True. Sampling has been harming the actual musicians more than anything else.
I mean, these days it's not all too hard getting a more or less realistic drum part done, using various sampling methods.
Especially when thinking about the efforts required to actually record a drumset properly, you'll often gladly live with some slightly less than ideal results.
Similar things go for other instruments, such as basses - but in this case it wouldn't at least be all too tough to get the real deal onboard.

And of course it also goes for orchestral stuff. But then, the last time I was involved in some recording session with some actual string quartet, my jaw was dropping when I got to know what an amount of dough they were asking for each tune... it's been like 500 german marks per person back then, around 250 Euro.
Now, this wouldn't be all that much if they were actually doing some tough work, but all they did was to si down, get their instruments out and play it, more or less firsttake-ish, as everything was notated properly and it hasn't been all that difficult stuff. So they managed to get around 3 tunes done on one afternoon. 1500 merks per person, for around 6 hours of work... huh.
No wonder nobody is willing to work with real strings anymore.

Just ask a string quartet (say, one from the local conservatory) to play 1-2 hours for, say, some vernissage. They'll be asking for something like 300 Euros per person. And that's just a students quartet.

I'm occasionally doing jobs like that as well (of course I won't be playing classical stuff, but something such as jazzy guitar duets or so), best I could get for 2 hours would be around 150 per person.

I know, this is drifiting away into OT land, but quite some classically trained musicians are freaking snobs. Just look at the big wellknown orchestras. I'd almost take a bet that all longtime members of, say, the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra are almost millionaires - well, maybe not, but at least they'll all be able to afford their own houses, fat cars and whatever luxury. Add to this that their jobs are highly sponsored by the state...

I couldn't draw any line in the sand and say why I have my reservations about, say, sampling a digital synth when it could theoretically be reproduced with total accuracy in software

For me, sampling virtual instruments is making much sense in a lot of ways.
- It's saving quite some CPU power (that's been the reason I started sampling them). Just recently I've been doing a really nice, big, lush pad sound, originally coming from a layer of various Absynth, FM7 and whatever instances. A simple 3-note voicing almost maxed out my Athlon 2800. Now the patch is using close to no CPU resources in Kontakt or EXS format.
- I only need to deal with one or too familiar interfaces (as said, EXS and Kontakt in my case).
- I often found both the EXS and especially Kontakt to add quite some good things which aren't existing in the original synth(s). I'm actually using them more like synths rather than in a sampler-only manner.
- My patches will be more or less compatible with any DAW. Almost every DAW user these days has a sampler importing EXS/Kontakt patches more or less fine (well, in fact, most people I know even own one of the two). So I can just take my favourite synth sounds with me to whichever place. Close to being impossible with synth presets. And even more impossible should I need to load some Win-only synth patches on a Mac.

[Seus Hawkins]

Lovesign>> It's you as a general term, not second person.

Regards

[Seus Hawkins]

Hollowsun>> So you haven't been selling anything/like others?

Regards

[Jaybez]

How depressing.
I should never have mentioned the sample source, just left it as "synthesised clav".
Its coming from a source that is no longer in production but maybe the manufacturers are using the algorithms/ engine or something in some current products.
I've reluctantly decided that due to the issues involved I will not be releasing the samples

HOLD ON A FUNKING MINUTE!!
If its a synthesised version of a product that is no longer in production and the source I am sampling is also no longer in production where the hell does the copyright/moral issue stand now??

Did Korg have an agreement with Hohner make a patch sounding like one of their instruments and call it by the same name??

I no longer have a clue.

[Sascha Franck]

Just go ahead and sample it, Jaybez. I can't see much of a legal issue coming up.

[Yossarian]

Legally, I'd say your safe as the source is not sample-based. Morally it might be considered dodgy if you're sampling someone else's presets. If you want to be absolutely sure what's what, you might want to e-mail Dan Phillips at Korg and tell him about your project. Dan is pretty much "Mr Oasys PCI". He's put a lot of time and effort into the platform, coding FX plugins for the Oasys long after it was discontinued by Korg. If it's OK with him, you're in the clear.

I found this e-mail address at his personal website www.danphillips.com : dan@danphillips.com

If you contact him, please let us know the outcome. I might consider doing something similar with my Oasys card.

/Yoss

[hollowsun]

Hollowsun>> So you haven't been selling anything/like others?

??

[hollowsun]

How depressing.
I should never have mentioned the sample source, just left it as "synthesised clav".

Sorry - I only chipped in coz I (mistakenly) thought that you were sampling clav samples from Korg's new flagship.... you might have been in a bit of trouble over that (if Korg found out that is!).

HOLD ON A FUNKING MINUTE!!
If its a synthesised version of a product that is no longer in production and the source I am sampling is also no longer in production where the hell does the copyright/moral issue stand now??

I'd say you were on pretty safe ground... even more so if that sound is tweaked and not just a straight 'out-the-box' Korg preset.

[hollowsun]

.... but all they did was to si down, get their instruments out and play it, more or less first take-ish, as everything was notated properly and it hasn't been all that difficult stuff. So they managed to get around 3 tunes done on one afternoon. 1500 merks per person, for around 6 hours of work... huh.

Well..... (playing devil's advocate slightly)... that's what your paying for - the fact that they can just sit down and pretty much sight-read almost anything you stick in front of them almost instantly. And it could be argued that your paying for (quite possibly) a lifetime of devotion to their chosen instrument, starting perhaps as a 5-yr-old child - you're paying for a skill!

No wonder nobody is willing to work with real strings anymore.

Well... that and the fact that a simple string line is easily emulated even on a crusty old analogue synth.

A kicking brass section, on the other hand, is *far* more difficult to emulate. Yes it can be done... you can find/buy the right samples and spend some weeks laboriously programming a 'human' sounding, tight brass section ... but it might actually be more cost effective to get a few guys in who have done this for a living for years and slam it down in an afternoon!

.... but quite some classically trained musicians are freaking snobs.

Yes... that can be true.

Just look at the big well known orchestras. I'd almost take a bet that all longtime members of, say, the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra are almost millionaires - well, maybe not, but at least they'll all be able to afford their own houses, fat cars and whatever luxury. Add to this that their jobs are highly sponsored by the state...

Dunno. In the UK, I believe the salaries are quite 'average'.... much like you'd get in a typical office job.

The whacky thing that I find amusing is car insurance categories - a 57-yr-old flautist with the BBC Welsh Orchestra is in the same insurance category as a 22-yr-old coke snorting, Jack Daniels drinking, groupy screwing HM thrash guitarist in the UK!!!

[Jaybez]

This thread has really mashed my head, I mean, going from some of the info here I would say Fender, Gibson, Marshall, any music manufacturer is owed some pretty large sums of money from using their instruments in commercially released music.

I had considered contacting Dan Phillips but frak it, its all too silly, I will release the samples (probably turn out a load of unusable poo anyway).

Korg will never take me alive!!