Black innovation?

[Mal DuFunq]

Maybe I'm just naive .
Quite frankly I'm greatful for the breadth of cultural experience I was exposed to whilst growing up.

Yes, you are naive. Don't get me wrong your views are both admirable and commendable, but nonetheles as naive as Rodney King's 'Can't we all just get along plea.'

Sure, we can agree and even prove that the whole concept of race is an artifical construct. However, due to hundreds of years and countless generations reared under the pernicious cloud of that artificial construct, it is a social reaility.

IMO talking about may or may not be constructive depending on the nature of the dialog, but NOT talking about it and pretending that there's nothing going on can only serve to perpetuate it.

I will say that I've been in these types of discusions on many forums and the KVR folks have been among the more civil and reasoned bunch that I've seen.

For the record I am a white American male married to an ethnically black but culturally hispanic woman. My kids' full breakdown is: Irish, French, Italian, Native American, African, English and Asian Indian. Guess what though? In America, they are simply 'black'.

[RapRogue]

I believe it was one of those darkies that invented the typewriter? Surely a good enough reason to bring back slavery?

British humor, the soul reason we had to kill you and drive you out of the promised land, haha.

[tee boy]

I really find the whole 'black' music thing quite offensive. They dont have 'white' music awards to often do they?

Yes: MTV Video Music Awards!!!

The more white folks (especially teens) that buys your music, the more chances that you would win one of these types of award shows.

Errr, no.

I was never away that the MTV awards was a celebration of white music? Awards shows like the MOBO's are quite a different matter - Music Of Black Origin Awards.

I find this offensive. It wasnt 'black people' who pioneered these styles, it was certain talented black artists. The music itself (in terms of its anatomy) is certainly of Western origin.

As Iv said many times in this thread - Credit where credit is due! You cant really say that music featuring diatonic scales, 3rd based chords etc, and is produced with computers, samplers etc is of 'black origin'.

You want a show celebtrating urban youth culture? Great, go for it. Just dont try to tell me this pop music belongs to a certain race, cuz thats twoddle.

[tee boy]

True, but I wonder what would be in its place? The technology would still have evolved I believe, so technology lead music would also have. People again want to say that the likes of techno, hip hop and house are all black derivative styles. I argue that they are equally 'technology' derivative styles. Had European composers not shown interest in sampling techniques (musique concrete) its probably the sample as we know it would not have been born

yeah and everyone just knows there wouldn't have been any Asian or (gasp) African scientists if it weren't for the slave trade.... lol

Wow, way to turn someones words 360, lol.

Do you disagree with this then Lady J? Im not saying its written in stone or anything, but I believe it to be the truth. You couldnt have had rock music without the electric guitar, and you couldnt have had any of the modern black derivative styles without the sampler.

"I argue that they are equally 'technology' derivative styles."

Bear that statement in mind. I never said the sampler was 100% responsible for these genres - I said the technology played an equal part. I could have gone all out and said that technology has a significantly bigger impact of music than the ethnic background of the artist involved (at least with regards to this case).


BTW, If you do a little history you'll probably discovery that the white working classes in England were equally as enslaved as the black captives. They just dont tell you about that in school, I guess its not pc. Manipulated into leaving the country (their homes) to live as slaves in work houses - this is how the British upper classes treated my ancestors.

I think the whole slave issue is more 'Rich vs Poor' than it is 'White vs Black'.

[xander]

What a f u c k i n g useless thread - totaly f u c k i n g useless. Why not start one called "White Innovations" or "Yellow Innovations" ?

There are only two races -- one is called "The Human Race" and the other one is called "The Indy 500". Move on.

Personally, being ethnically "Mongrel", I demand equal time in a new thread called "Mixed Blood Innovation".

[tee boy]

Why, what have musicians of mixed ethinticity ever contributed?

[xander]

Why, what have musicians of mixed ethinticity ever contributed?

Whaa??

Why, it was Willy Rosenblatt Williams wot invented the 'Mouth Harp' in 1837, but because he was part Jew, they insisted on calling it a 'Jews Harp'.

See? Ya just can't win from being profiled and pigeon-holed these days.

[multree]

The music itself (in terms of its anatomy) is certainly of Western origin.

well blues / jazz & rock'n'roll were "invented" in the western world.... but guess by whom...

yup right.. : me

it was all me... and now you can go home and rewrite your history books

[stale bread]

that stale brain comment was funny

i live in los angeles and I make hiphop. most of the shows i go to are mostly filled with white people and definitely not 40 -50% blacks, I don't know what shows your talking about. here's a link and a little more on the phenomena.

this has been goin on since public enemy btw

http://p076.ezboard.com/fpoliticalpalac ... =296.topic

The 40-50% estimate comes from one of my kids who has attended several hip hop concerts in Orange County and a few in LA.

This deviates from the original point though. That is: I hope you are not contending that the interest in blues and jazz among African-Americans is equal or anywhere near the interest in hip-hop? Even taking into account gernerational differences, I don't believe this applies. Yes, a middle-aged Af-AM is likely to be conversant in soul and funk, but non-fusion jazz and blues? The chances are much slimmer. I base this on my own personal experiences, the experiences of others, demographics I see at shows and even various media articles.

no I agree with you on that, what part of california do you live in btw

[stale bread]

BTW, If you do a little history you'll probably discovery that the white working classes in England were equally as enslaved as the black captives. They just dont tell you about that in school, I guess its not pc. Manipulated into leaving the country (their homes) to live as slaves in work houses - this is how the British upper classes treated my ancestors.

I think the whole slave issue is more 'Rich vs Poor' than it is 'White vs Black'.

not the same thing. were their language, culture,beliefs, and rights to be educated taken from them, did they live in a world where learning to read and write would get them killed. I believe all atrocities, like people are equal, but it isn't right to belittle something as vicous as hatred into
a purely economic concept. greed exist then as it does now and so does hatred, but you won't be able to combat it properly if you don't see it for what it is.

[FaX]

BTW, If you do a little history you'll probably discovery that the white working classes in England were equally as enslaved as the black captives. They just dont tell you about that in school, I guess its not pc.


not the same thing. were their language, culture,beliefs, and rights to be educated taken from them .

In the case of the Scotts / Celts / Welsh and Irish I would have to say most definately yes.
Even the discrimination my mother and her family experienced having moved to London several years before WWII from Ireland was utterly atrocious.
Verbal abuse , sledging , being denied acces to certain educational services and jobs.
People in the street use too cross the road and refuse to walk on the same footpath as them.
Either that or they where quite often sworn at and spat on etc..
Most people just treated them like dirty lazy scum where they grew up in the UK.

[Mal DuFunq]

[no I agree with you on that, what part of california do you live in btw

Orange County.

[Mal DuFunq]

What a f u c k i n g useless thread - totaly f u c k i n g useless. Why not start one called "White Innovations" or "Yellow Innovations" ?

The original poster was merely pointing out the many musical innovations given to us by some African descended people. Do you have a problem with the veracity of that contention? In America, at least, it is important to remember since historically white musicians were often given or claimed credit for those innovations. Now, if everyone at KVR is fully aware of these historical facts then, yes, I'll agree it's a moot thread.

There are only two races -- one is called "The Human Race" and the other one is called "The Indy 500". Move on.

As always, that's a nice sentiment and maybe someday we'll get there. Meanwhile what planet do you currently call home?

Personally, being ethnically "Mongrel", I demand equal time in a new thread called "Mixed Blood Innovation".

Since you asked, albeit tongue-in-cheek, I'll answer anyway: Jelly Roll Morton, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix come to mind.

[Mal DuFunq]

Errr, no.

I was never away that the MTV awards was a celebration of white music? Awards shows like the MOBO's are quite a different matter - Music Of Black Origin Awards.

I find this offensive. It wasnt 'black people' who pioneered these styles, it was certain talented black artists. The music itself (in terms of its anatomy) is certainly of Western origin.

As Iv said many times in this thread - Credit where credit is due! You cant really say that music featuring diatonic scales, 3rd based chords etc, and is produced with computers, samplers etc is of 'black origin'.

You want a show celebtrating urban youth culture? Great, go for it. Just dont try to tell me this pop music belongs to a certain race, cuz thats twoddle.

Junior, you just don't seem to be getting the point which is surprising conidering it right there on the top of your head. Whether you want to face it or not many of the most popular pop styles since the 19th century have been developed/invented by people of African descent. To say 'Just a few talented ones' denies both the pattern that exists and the whole socio-historical context. Art is never created in a vaccuum.

But I think I can help. I have a talent for expanding a narrow mind. Repeat after me:

Ragtime, the blues, gospel, jazz, rhythm n blues, rock n roll, samba, calypso, ska, , salsa, reggae, soul, funk, techno, hip hop were all created by people of African descent.

Now repeat ten more times to yourself, absorb it, assimilate it and then we can end this thread.

[toine6]

Worthless thread if ever I saw one...

Human's of all colors are one species.


Move along...