Black innovation?

[nuffink]

"Electronica and dance music trace their roots back to soul and rhythm and blues, aka, "black music.""

no they dont - they trace their roots to kraftwerk - who are clearly in the european classical tradition - no funky beats to be seen anywhere

hmmm .... time for you to have another listen to the rhythms on the "Computerworld" album

Absolutely. Kraftwork are funky as.

[pHz]

dont read too much into this ... just doing the debating thing ...

To continue following the evolution/technological line of thought, I guess Lucy or Kenyanthropus (Africa still) gave birth to all scientific
achievements...haha.

glad the 'haha' is there ... fundamentally stupid statement ... human culture did not exist 3 1/2 million years ago therefore neither did africa as a cultural construct (which is precisely what it is in the context of this thread) ...

Because if not for them, no us. (giving the possibility for invention)

yeah of course ... because there were no other possible evolutionary lines around were there ???

Now I seriously doubt you will use that line of thought again, as you do not have the mindset to deal with it all.

nuff said ...

Last point to make is if musicians who always pride themselves to be without borders/limitations and what not, have such a hard time with this. Then you should
be able to imagine reality, that is, if you are not in
a state of denial...of course.

last point to make is that as far as the evidence shows ALL human cultures have created music / sound as a central part of their existence ... who cares who invented what ... its part of ALL of us ...

slainte rob

[xander]

What a f u c k i n g useless thread - totaly f u c k i n g useless. Why not start one called "White Innovations" or "Yellow Innovations" ?

The original poster was merely pointing out the many musical innovations given to us by some African descended people. Do you have a problem with the veracity of that contention? In America, at least, it is important to remember since historically white musicians were often given or claimed credit for those innovations. Now, if everyone at KVR is fully aware of these historical facts then, yes, I'll agree it's a moot thread.

I have a problem with ANY thread that sets out from the beginning to delineate a topic based upon skin color. It's horseshit to do that and seems merely a ruse to create a divisive atmosphere due to some stupid immature reason or another. In fact, the very title of this thread is racist.

I don't know what part of America you were raised in but I have NEVER heard any American claim historical credit for musical innovations that were made by Africans. I've only ever heard acknowledgement, praise and admiration. If you came here to root out a lot of 'Black bashers' and white supremiscists, you came to the wrong place, though you can find such creatures everywhere if you really really really want to...

I believe most people and EVERY MUSCIAN that frequents KVR is and has been aware of which INDIVIDUALS were responsible for innovations in contemporary music. The topic is and has been moot for a very long time.

There are only two races -- one is called "The Human Race" and the other one is called "The Indy 500". Move on.

As always, that's a nice sentiment and maybe someday we'll get there. [cut snied remark...]

We'll never get there if we keep seeing thread topics like this. There's roughly fifty years difference between the time of African slavery and the time my ancestors were slaves... The entire issue at hand is socio-economic based. BUT this has nothing to do with it -- you want to talk about skin color right mate? Most Africans I know have moved way beyond what you wish to labour over here. You seem to want to create an issue in a place where none exists (KVR).

You probably don't realize how 'America-centric' you are. You appear to know nothing about slavery, ethnicism and racism in other parts of the world like Europe and Asia, and so typically assume that the entire world is somehow fixated on 'The American Black Thing' -- evident in your comments. Expand your mind to encompass a bit more geography.

Personally, being ethnically "Mongrel", I demand equal time in a new thread called "Mixed Blood Innovation".

Since you asked, albeit tongue-in-cheek, I'll answer anyway: Jelly Roll Morton, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix come to mind.

I didn't "ask" anything here "Junior" -- I made a 'light-hearted' statement. Stop trying to 'peg' people with a shite load of arrogant presumptions and obnoxiously-toned blather and go get a sense of humour -- and move on. We've heard all of this before and endlessly so...

[crimsontider]

Was Rock and Roll not heavily influenced by Hillbilly music? Many seem to believe that R&R just evolved from Rhythm and Blues. Hillbilly (Country) was using Drum, bass and guitar with a heavy 4/4 beat before Rock and Roll and Ike Turners breakthrough Rocket 88.
Listen to even Hank Williams stuff from the 40's and other Hillbilly music. Bluegrass history is interesting as well.

IMO, blacks have always had a knack for pushing the envelope and doing things that at first are considered Rude and Tacky by Whites societies’ conservative nature.
They have always been more "in your face" and shocking, and white's usually take the idea and cash in once it becomes socially acceptable to the masses.

[RapRogue]

dont read too much into this ... just doing the debating thing ...

Do not worry; it was not much to read.

To continue following the evolution/technological line of thought, I guess Lucy or Kenyanthropus (Africa still) gave birth to all scientific
achievements...haha.

glad the 'haha' is there ... fundamentally stupid statement ... human culture did not exist 3 1/2 million years ago therefore neither did africa as a cultural construct (which is precisely what it is in the context of this thread) ...

Ah, that is supposed to be your smart comeback. Too bad.
Would the invention exist if you took away
one-step of the evolution? You tell me...
would you be here if your mother would have
done an abortion? Then would you have been able to make retarded statements. Guess not...haha.
Remember the original line of thought was not
mine, I just concluded it see (Tee boy).

Because if not for them, no us. (giving the possibility for invention)

yeah of course ... because there were no other possible evolutionary lines around were there ???

Extinction is always an option Mr T-rex.

Now I seriously doubt you will use that line of thought again, as you do not have the mindset to deal with it all.

nuff said ...

Indeed.

Last point to make is if musicians who always pride themselves to be without borders/limitations and what not, have such a hard time with this. Then you should
be able to imagine reality, that is, if you are not in
a state of denial...of course.

last point to make is that as far as the evidence shows ALL human cultures have created music / sound as a central part of their existence ... who cares who invented what ... its part of ALL of us ...slainte rob

Some cultures invented more than others, which is
the point to heed and not hide in your case. You do
not care, and neither does some history books. If you
do not care, then you would not 'care' to argue the
point either. Lol good try tho...soon
that white belt will be a faint memory haha.

[Cabinfever]

when you start attributing characteristics and abilities to entire groups based on race, you start on a slippery slope.

you have to attribute those attributes very clearly to "culture".

if not, and you attribute them to race, then you are stating that certain races have certain abilities.

then why stop at music abilities ? why not declare that certain races are smart, stupid, innovators, liars etc

so, it's either "cultural tradition" or it's "race-based genetics".

[pHz]

Ah, that is supposed to be your smart comeback. Too bad.

your supposition not mine ... im not smart enough to second-guess your arrogant interpretation of my post ...

Would the invention exist if you took away
one-step of the evolution? You tell me...

didnt say it would ... but it might have come from a different geographical location ...

would you be here if your mother would have
done an abortion? Then would you have been able to make retarded statements. Guess not...haha.

way to debate this on a mature level ...

Remember the original line of thought was not mine, I just concluded it see (Tee boy).

and i just felt it needed questioning ... if not yours then why take opposition so personally ???

Extinction is always an option Mr T-rex.

pointless ... doesnt move the debate on and / or misses the point completely ...

Some cultures invented more than others, which is the point to heed and not hide in your case.

cant argue with that ... but show me where i said they didnt ...

You do not care, and neither does some history books. If you do not care, then you would not 'care' to argue the point either.

again ... if you want to debate seriously then stick to points that have ACTUALLY been made rather than assuming to know what i do or dont care about ...

slainte rob

[RapRogue]

Ah, that is supposed to be your smart comeback. Too bad.

...im not smart...

Lets stop there.

Would the invention exist if you took away
one-step of the evolution? You tell me...

didnt say it would ... but it might have come from a different geographical location ...

Lets stick with what we know.

would you be here if your mother would have
done an abortion? Then would you have been able to make retarded statements. Guess not...haha.

way to debate this on a mature level ...

Guess that point reached your level, and struck home.

Remember the original line of thought was not mine, I just concluded it see (Tee boy).

and i just felt it needed questioning ... if not yours then why take opposition so personally ???

Felt? Hmmm if you do not care then you would not feel the need to.

Extinction is always an option Mr T-rex.

pointless ... doesnt move the debate on and / or misses the point completely ...

Guess YOU missed the point.

Some cultures invented more than others, which is the point to heed and not hide in your case.

cant argue with that ... but show me where i said they didnt ...

Pointless to argue reality, which has been said over
and over in this thread, somethime you will get it too.

You do not care, and neither does some history books. If you do not care, then you would not 'care' to argue the point either.

again ... if you want to debate seriously then stick to points that have ACTUALLY been made rather than assuming to know what i do or dont care about ...

Lol now you are telling me what to do, haha. And if
you take quotes out of context you need to show it as
well. Look at my opening quote for instance. And I
assumed nothing, either you care or you don’t, very
simple. If you care then you care to argue as well.
If you do not care about it but care to argue, then
you might want to explain why you care to argue
something which hold no interest for you?

[pHz]

i do care to argue (usually) ...

slainte rob

[pHz]

perhaps its just me though ...

slainte rob

[tee boy]

Errr, no.

I was never away that the MTV awards was a celebration of white music? Awards shows like the MOBO's are quite a different matter - Music Of Black Origin Awards.

I find this offensive. It wasnt 'black people' who pioneered these styles, it was certain talented black artists. The music itself (in terms of its anatomy) is certainly of Western origin.

As Iv said many times in this thread - Credit where credit is due! You cant really say that music featuring diatonic scales, 3rd based chords etc, and is produced with computers, samplers etc is of 'black origin'.

You want a show celebtrating urban youth culture? Great, go for it. Just dont try to tell me this pop music belongs to a certain race, cuz thats twoddle.

Junior, you just don't seem to be getting the point which is surprising conidering it right there on the top of your head. Whether you want to face it or not many of the most popular pop styles since the 19th century have been developed/invented by people of African descent. To say 'Just a few talented ones' denies both the pattern that exists and the whole socio-historical context. Art is never created in a vaccuum.

But I think I can help. I have a talent for expanding a narrow mind. Repeat after me:

Ragtime, the blues, gospel, jazz, rhythm n blues, rock n roll, samba, calypso, ska, , salsa, reggae, soul, funk, techno, hip hop were all created by people of African descent.

Now repeat ten more times to yourself, absorb it, assimilate it and then we can end this thread.

Junior, haha.

Ok, Iv had my giggle, now lets get back to the action.

It is you my friend who seems to be missing my the point. Read and absorb:

"As Iv said many times in this thread - Credit where credit is due! You cant really say that music featuring diatonic scales, 3rd based chords etc, and is produced with computers, samplers etc is of 'black origin'."

Dang, I cant believe I have to quote myself to make a point. If you want to diasagree with me, do so, but argue you case. Dont try to be a smartarse, cuz you just come off sounding a bellend. If anything in my post is inaccurate, state why?

Imo, the fundamental principles of most 20th century music is derived from European Western music. Thats not a black / white statement. It has nothing to do with my race, or the race of anyone else here. As far as Im concerned its a fact.

You disagree, say why?

You talk about ragtime? I say this was a derviative of late romantic music. You talk about techno? I say this was equally influenced by the technology as it was by anything African.

And I'll say it again, if you read my previous posts you'll be able to avoid reading this out of context. Im merely saying that the influence of European music is greatly undermined in the developement of MOBO. I find the term wholy offensive, since this music is most definately not of 100% black origin.

Thats a stupid as saying Van Damme invented f**king Karate.

[tee boy]

Why, what have musicians of mixed ethinticity ever contributed?

Whaa??

Why, it was Willy Rosenblatt Williams wot invented the 'Mouth Harp' in 1837, but because he was part Jew, they insisted on calling it a 'Jews Harp'.

See? Ya just can't win from being profiled and pigeon-holed these days.

Said in jest my man, said in jest. I think it could be said that the vast majority of black people are mixed race. Maybe I'll be flamed for saying that - not sure the pc status on that one!

[tee boy]

BTW, If you do a little history you'll probably discovery that the white working classes in England were equally as enslaved as the black captives. They just dont tell you about that in school, I guess its not pc. Manipulated into leaving the country (their homes) to live as slaves in work houses - this is how the British upper classes treated my ancestors.

I think the whole slave issue is more 'Rich vs Poor' than it is 'White vs Black'.

not the same thing. were their language, culture,beliefs, and rights to be educated taken from them, did they live in a world where learning to read and write would get them killed. I believe all atrocities, like people are equal, but it isn't right to belittle something as vicous as hatred into
a purely economic concept. greed exist then as it does now and so does hatred, but you won't be able to combat it properly if you don't see it for what it is.

I know what you're saying, but I think the principle of the post is accurate:

Rich vs Poor, not Black vs White. It wasnt my ancestors who were involved in slavery - they were enslaved themselves! If you want to hold it against anyone hold it against the rich upperclasses. They've shafted us all!

I mean, just look at Africa today (but thats another story).

[RapRogue]

i do care to argue (usually) ...

perhaps its just me though ...

That is you. I do not care to argue things
I do not care about, as I feel that is a
waste of my time (making music?). However, that
is just me.

[Bunnyboy]

God, what fun things are being said in this thread!!