Black innovation?

[Cheeso]

Don't forget the Mexican influence on Calexico and Beck...or even Love (and subsequently Belle & Sebastian)...and the Beatles must have been listening to Trio Los Panchos when they wrote "And I Love Her"

[Cheeso]

Is he related to ODB?

[bobbyblank]

hut ONE hut TWO hut three
HUT!!
*old dirty bastard*
live an' uncut

[Hink]

you gotta wonder though, if the earlist form of music could be found...how much of that inspirtion came from the sounds of nature?.....having said that, and seeing the title of this thread turn from innovation to invented...I contend music is purely a form of nature so therefore it could not be invented.

Innovation is created by many variables, none of which are any more or less important then the other...

[androidlove]

Cafe Tacuba are the most under rated pop band I know

i listened to eres. it's better than hotel california. still, not my kind of music. anyone remember los panties?

[Mal DuFunq]

Ragtime, the blues, gospel, jazz, rhythm n blues, rock n roll, samba, calypso, ska, , salsa, reggae, soul, funk, techno, hip hop were all created by people of African descent.

Now repeat ten more times to yourself, absorb it, assimilate it and then we can end this thread.
thread.

imo its racist through and through. to say that any one music as solely created by any one culture or race is bullshit. music is defined by those who make it not by the way people look. and every musican is influenced by every other musican. no one person and surely no one race has sole claim to any single genre of music. and for you to claim black pride on 15 different styles of music is downright insulting and just plain ignorant.

So just who did create those styles of music? Are you naive enough to think that there was this great big convention with all cultures and races together and they said "Let there be funk." And there was funk. "Let us dance to the beat of samba." Which begat samba.

To deny credit to the creators of a music and pretend it emerged from some pimordial soup that one can possibly trace is naive at best and racist at worst. That's why we have musicologists, who BTW do credit African descended people with having created those forms of music. So go ahead genius, the burden of proof is on you. Show me how these forms of music came to be and prove to me that they would have existed WITHOUT African descended people.

[toine6]

Ragtime, the blues, gospel, jazz, rhythm n blues, rock n roll, samba, calypso, ska, , salsa, reggae, soul, funk, techno, hip hop were all created by people of African descent.

Now repeat ten more times to yourself, absorb it, assimilate it and then we can end this thread.
thread.

imo its racist through and through. to say that any one music as solely created by any one culture or race is bullshit. music is defined by those who make it not by the way people look. and every musican is influenced by every other musican. no one person and surely no one race has sole claim to any single genre of music. and for you to claim black pride on 15 different styles of music is downright insulting and just plain ignorant.

So just who did create those styles of music? Are you naive enough to think that there was this great big convention with all cultures and races together and they said "Let there be funk." And there was funk. "Let us dance to the beat of samba." Which begat samba.

To deny credit to the creators of a music and pretend it emerged from some pimordial soup that one can possibly trace is naive at best and racist at worst. That's why we have musicologists, who BTW do credit African descended people with having created those forms of music. So go ahead genius, the burden of proof is on you. Show me how these forms of music came to be and prove to me that they would have existed WITHOUT African descended people.

Humans made the music. There is such a thing called, cultural differences, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the color of one's skin. Last I checked, many of the light skinned (and dark skinned) people of Ireland have much different musical styles than many of the light and dark skinned people of Russia.

If you want to go ahead and say the Irish, helped originate a certain type of music then you'd probably be mostly right. But to just go ahead and clump all light skinned people, as having created keltic music or whatever is a garbagie way to look at it. Skin color has nothing to do with anything.

But I guess you're not talking about color at all are you? You are just saying of African desent, which I guess would be pretty accurate. However the thread is talking about BLACK music not South, North, East, West African culture, which is where I think the mistake in terms is made.

[Mal DuFunq]

I have a problem with ANY thread that sets out from the beginning to delineate a topic based upon skin color. It's horseshit to do that and seems merely a ruse to create a divisive atmosphere due to some stupid immature reason or another. In fact, the very title of this thread is racist.

Actually, I think the reluctance, fear, distate of disussing race is racist in and of itself. It's interesting to see how one poster listing "Black Innovations" (factually accurate I might add) and then simply asking what the next one might be could arouse so much passion and bile.

Oh, and you are jumping to your own conclusion to think this topic is about skin color and not culture. Skin color in and of itself cannot create anything, it only indicates the melanin content of that individual. Culture however is the milieu from which art is born.

I don't know what part of America you were raised in but I have NEVER heard any American claim historical credit for musical innovations that were made by Africans. I've only ever heard acknowledgement, praise and admiration. If you came here to root out a lot of 'Black bashers' and white supremiscists, you came to the wrong place, though you can find such creatures everywhere if you really really really want to...

Now there's the difference between you and I. I don't claim anything more than a cursory knowledge of race relations in Europe or Asia so I leave that to those who know. You, OTH, are presuming to lecture me about American history? Who's the centric one now?

Since you've never heard any American claim credit for African-American musical acheivement, I suggest you clear the wax from your narrow ear passages, because it has happened on a societal level in this country.

The first jazz band ever to record was a white band,
the Original Dixlieland Jazz Band. They were from New Orleans. Gee, I wonder where they learned jazz from. Their trumpter, Nick LaRocca claimed that he invented jazz. History proves him wrong but that statement was accepted by white mainstream America for years.

Paul Whiteman, who's band played mostly "society" music with a sometime jazz influence in the 1920's, was annointed the "King of Jazz" by the music and popular press despite the fact that Louis Armstrong,
Sidney Bechet, Duke Ellington were around.

Benny Goodman was annointed 'The King of Swing' in a similar way even though his most popular arrangements were done by Fletcher Henderson, an African-American. Duke Ellington, Count Basie and Chick Webb were out there swinging there asses off but the key is that white mainstream public bought into the Benny Goodman as King of Swing claim

Elvis was annointed the 'King of Rock', despite the presence of Chuck Berry (a true innovator), Little Richard and Bo Diddley. The saddest irony is that Little Richard's version of 'Tutti Fruity' was surpassed in sales by Pat Boone's later cover it.

To illustrate how authentic Af-Am blues were hidden from the white-mainstream public, most fans of the Rolling Stones thought that they invented that Muddy Water-Chuck Berry style they started with. The American press though Eric Clapton invented his BB King influenced string bending style. When the Beatles came to America they asked members of the American press where they could find Muddy Waters and John Lee Hooker. The members of the press responded with a unison "who?"

I could go on with the Police and reggae, Vanilla Ice, Emeniem and the great-white-hope syndrome that despite more enlightened generations, still exists,
but if I haven't made my point with you as to why it is significant to give credit where it is due, then I suppose I never will.

We'll never get there if we keep seeing thread topics like this.

No, we'll never get there if we keep sweeping topics like this under the carpet. When a thread like this truly gets greeted with a "ho-hum, we all know that", then we'll have gotten somewhere. But, that's not the way the topic was received by many in case you didn't notice.

Personally, being ethnically "Mongrel", I demand equal time in a new thread called "Mixed Blood Innovation".

Since you asked, albeit tongue-in-cheek, I'll answer anyway: Jelly Roll Morton, Bob Marley, Jimi Hendrix come to mind.

I didn't "ask" anything here "Junior" -- I made a 'light-hearted' statement. Stop trying to 'peg' people with a shite load of arrogant presumptions and obnoxiously-toned blather and go get a sense of humour -- and move on. We've heard all of this before and endlessly so...

This indicates that you are either thick headed or not very bright. You made a "light-hearted" statement which I acknowledged as such (or is the 'toungue in cheek' strictly an Americanism?) and I repsonded with a light-hearted reply. You evidently either didn't comprehend or you centrism makes you think that you have an exclusive on levity.

[Mal DuFunq]

.

But I guess you're not talking about color at all are you? You are just saying of African desent, which I guess would be pretty accurate. However the thread is talking about BLACK music not South, North, East, West African culture, which is where I think the mistake in terms is made.

Ah, you reached an epiphany! The terms do get jumbled a bit and for the purpose of brevity, shorthand often gets used. Fully qualified it would be 'people of West African descent who resided in the Western Hemisphere'. That would about cover but if you wanted to go to the micro level you'd need to delineate the specific tribes in West Africa and that is a bit much.

Note where skin color is NOT the issue here. I don't why so many jump to that conclusion. I guess everyone has their own agenda.

[Mal DuFunq]

Junior, haha.

Ok, Iv had my giggle, now lets get back to the action.

It is you my friend who seems to be missing my the point. Read and absorb:

"As Iv said many times in this thread - Credit where credit is due! You cant really say that music featuring diatonic scales, 3rd based chords etc, and is produced with computers, samplers etc is of 'black origin'."

Dang, I cant believe I have to quote myself to make a point. If you want to diasagree with me, do so, but argue you case. Dont try to be a smartarse, cuz you just come off sounding a bellend. If anything in my post is inaccurate, state why?

Junior, you're creating an army of straw men here.
Diatonic scales, major triad chords, computers and samplers are not of West-African descended people's origin. However, the blues tonality, West African music, the heavy syncopation of funk, the "ragged" time of ragtime, the shuffle 12/8 feel over a 4/4 beat, the concept of "swinging" notes very much are.

Imo, the fundamental principles of most 20th century music is derived from European Western music. Thats not a black / white statement. It has nothing to do with my race, or the race of anyone else here. As far as Im concerned its a fact.

You disagree, say why?

You talk about ragtime? I say this was a derviative of late romantic music. You talk about techno? I say this was equally influenced by the technology as it was by anything African.

But both took one or more people of West-African descent to create a new, innovative form. Do you deny that? Oh, and no one is saying that many of the tools used come from the European tradition. In fact, if you read MY earlier post you'll see that I equate this to a collision of both European and West African music traditions and sensibilities. I have said before (you might want to practice what you preach and read my earlier posts in the thread) Art is not created in a vaccuum! However, the essential fact that it was West-Af descended people who melded these styles and create new forms which turned out to be very popular with the mainstream population cannot be deined. I just don't know why so many have such trouble accepting that especially behind the guise of 'Let's not talk about it'.
So go ahead, wriggle away on this one.

[tee boy]

I do think we are somewhere on the same wavelength. But there are holes in your logic.

Let me answer a few points directly:

"Diatonic scales, major triad chords, computers and samplers are not of West-African descended people's origin. However, the blues tonality, West African music, the heavy syncopation of funk, the "ragged" time of ragtime, the shuffle 12/8 feel over a 4/4 beat, the concept of "swinging" notes very much are."

Exactly. How can you say something is of black origin where it is clearly a hybrid? It has as much white influence as it does black. Hence why i complain at the MOBO title. I dont think you can credit an entire musical style to a race - like you say nothing happens in a vacume. MOBO could not have originated without strong influence from Europe.


"However, the essential fact that it was West-Af descended people who melded these styles and create new forms which turned out to be very popular with the mainstream population cannot be deined."

Ok. You say that African descendants blended influences from their own culture with a solid grounding of European music. I agree with that. But this is just what any musician does. I might be influenced by funk music and make a breaks track - could i call this music of white origin? Somehow i dont think Id get away with that would i? The techno music made today is made 99.9% by white Europeans - is techno now of white origin?

Credit the artist, not the race. If someone writes music, it belongs to them, not their people.

[Stairsteps]

Most of the ppl here on Kvr dont actually FEEL music , they critic it they bash it they praise it but only ppl I think that feels it is Black ppl, it's something that you dont learn or go to school to get either.

Im afraid to say its something your born with , there are a small number of blacks that arent born with it, but most of them actually FEEL it in there bones, so much so that blacks are the sole innovators of ALL kinds of dancing.

I remember back in the seventies and eighties when I saw a white person dance it looked like they were all off timming and sync, heck even the few that could dance back then were either half black or have been watching VERY closley on how to move with the beat.

Now all of a sudden you got these white boys emminem beasty boys rejects that all swing there hat around backwards and try to immatate the way black ppl move, what they wear and how they talk.

And If you ask one of them about black culture they spit out names like Tu Pac shakur and P diddy , fifty even.

Not saying there are no white ppl with a beat but trust me on this that beat they think they have is learned not natural.

I guess its very flattering when ppl immate you and very nice to be copied but what I dont get is where is all the love in the job market? where you have record number of Male blacks outta work or on unemployment, I mean come on the billion dollar clothing market dosent blink without knowing what black ppl like , neither does the music buss or sports either, But let a black person go to a job interview, and either hes hired cause of quotas or not at ALL.

[tee boy]

Dude, I just read the first couple of lines and it really said it all.

You are either a pro grade troll, or a complete duns (and a racist). You also seem to be quite clueless.

I feel music. Its as if music is part of my gentic code or something, its just in my blood. I dont put that down to genetics though - I believe its due to the fact that I was exposed to a wide range of music since birth. Iv studied music of various styles my whole life. It is part of me. Im sure many people here could say the same thing.

The reason black people may or maynot have a more instinctive feel for rhythm, is that their culture revolves around highly rhythmic music. They have been exposed to it from day one. It has nothing to do with race, its to do with experience.

[androidlove]

races are like breeds. certain breeds can do things others can't. mix breeds have new qualities. we're animals.see it that way

culture is a part of other animal communities as well, but don't discount genetics

[toine6]

races are like breeds. certain breeds can do things others can't. mix breeds have new qualities. we're animals.see it that way

culture is a part of other animal communities as well, but don't discount genetics

Same breed, different colors.