Dongle?? WIll Philharmonik have one??

[Caleb]

Jason, I think the concept of dongles for some is more than just a drag. It's an affront.

But I'm in a "suck-it-and-see" mood about it at the moment.

I feel disappointed at myself for caving in to dongle-fever and if it's any consolation, a company other than IKM probably would not have swayed my resolve at all.

Caleb

[gnu23]

Sorry but the dongle kills it for me. I know too many unhappy Cubase users to trust them.

See ya,
Gordon

Same here. While I have enjoyed reading posts from Squids and believe him to be an upfront guy, this is where I get off the IK bus. Unfortunately, that also includes Sonic Reality given their close partnership.

Time to find another sampler and compatible libraries. I'm glad I didn't sink too much cash into their products...

[dougsyo]

Jason,

Can you say if/when this donglization will affect existing products (Sampletank, Amplitube, Sonik Synth 2, etc)?

Doug

[Rellik]

no boundaries

I love my ST2XL, and I'm sure I'll love Philharmonik dongle or not (ok not sure, but I assume), but I don't think I can pass up the opportunity to point out the irony in that statement, referring to IK/SR products.

[mike85021]

I just think we should be told in advance.

I for one will NOT purchase Philharmonik without knowing if a dongle is required, and certainly will not purchase it if one is.

I've socked enough money into eSoundz to be treated with some respect. If the company feels that I have to be cuffed and monitored to be trusted, that is tentamont to being treated as a criminal, pre-judged and no jury.

I have no pirated software, and my biggest and longest loyalty is and will be to Cakewalk because they have avoided such anti-piracy schemes. It's overkill, and it doesn't stop the hackers anyway.

[Squids]

Instead of replying to each person's post I will try to put as much as I can into on Squids mega post at a time.

It really bothers me to hear anyone say that we don't care. But, then I don't really think anyone who says that is paying enough attention to posts by me. I own Sonic Reality. We did the sounds for this product and wanted the sounds to be protected for a change. If you know how much the original Miroslav library then you can imagine how much I must have invested in purchasing (not even licensing but a full aquisition) of it so that we could bring it to the user at a price 10X lower so more people could afford it (because I have news for you, Miroslav himself would have never done it).

Yes, we did also spend nearly a year working it up as well which included bringing in additional unreleased material, tuning, tweaking, editing, looping... all to make a product even greater than it ever was before. IK went the extra mile to make the software customized to do incredibly useful things and even added an expensive additional top quality reverb from CSR to the product as the cherry on top. It needed to be PROTECTED.

There aren't that many solutions out there for this but we've studied the results of copy protection types and it shows a significant increase statistically for products that use ILok and/or Syncrosoft. If no one could deal with USB keys then how is it possible that companies have actually shown an increase in registrations when using this method? I know that doesn't take away from anyone here who has their opinions and decisions based on it. It successfully bums me out to see it as I want to please everyone. But, in this case, it isn't that easy. It takes a lot, as you can imagine, to even be able to do this (all of it from the initial deal making to making the product to the effort to protect it) and we have to make tough business decisions. Even though some people on here can say that they won't get it because of a USB key (and it mostly just hurts esoundz since it depends on support around here more than IK as a manufacturer who sells to a much wider audience around the world) the reality is that more people who really want to use it in their music will actually have to buy it and that will translate into more legit returns on the investment... which we need!

Let me expand for a second on the misunderstanding someone had about "don't pretend IK needs the money". First of all, any company that invests heavily into making a product needs the money. Every month a company needs revenue to stay in business and without getting into a discussion of even the most casual forms of piracy, I think everyone knows that it does hurt the industry. But, IK isn't the only company that invested in this product. Sonic Reality too. We're not Warner Bros. This is the biggest investment I've ever made and you have to believe me when I tell you that we need as many people that actually use it to really buy it or we can't do these kind of things anymore. So, the hardware key is some insurance and if it works on the whole like it is supposed to then you can look forward to more high value for money products that cost us a fortune to make.

On additional details, please don't jump to conclusions. Regarding concerns over IK using the IKey on future products, let me tell you that nothing is set in stone. Miroslav Philharmonik works with an IKey, the same kind of key that Steinberg uses. ST2.1 will not work with an IKey. But, future versions of ST2 MAY (I say may, nothing has been announced). AT2 may work with it. My guess is yes unless there is a technical reason that hinders it from being the best solution. So, nothing is going to happen because some people protest against hardware keys. There are people who protest against nearly every decision you could make including C/R. But, if there were technical issues preventing it from working for too many customers then that would be different. However, it hasn't stopped Steinberg from their success which I understand has only increased in reality. Has Cubase lost any popularity? You might think so from reading a forum but it just isn't the case.

Let me clear up a few myths now. Using the Ikey does NOT affect CPU usage of the plug. This I can tell you from my own experience and it was a concern of mine when I heard this rumor. So we tested it and we happen to have a version of Philharmonik before and after the Ikey implementation. No difference whatsoever. In fact, with the implementation of the send fx now you have the possibility to even run more efficiently than ST2 since you can use one reverb for example instead of several on inserts.

As for people that disable their USB ports... that's rare. So many music products use USB. If you're not you're missing out. I use it all the time! I don't know what I'd do without it. I have so many USB keyboards, hard drives and other gadgets that it is hard to deprive myself from this joy of owning a computer.... connectivity is one of the main features I look for in a computer (if it has firewire, some USB ports, PCMCIA on a laptop, PCI slots on a desktop etc.). I think most people do. We can't cater to every single person. Some people still insist on running Windows 98. Again, I DO want their business but you can't please everyone so one of us has to make a sacrifice. Us the sale or you getting a system that will work with the software you like. Luckily, as Sonic Reality on www.esoundz.com we also have libraries to sell that you can run in whatever sample software you want. We cut the price of the original Miroslav libraries which we now own and you can import those into whatever you want. It isn't as low a price as Philharmonik but one could go that route if they wanted too. Maybe Alex could make a special bundle deal or something if anyone wanted to explore that. Maybe a nice deal on BOTH perhaps. Maybe even a group buy so those that want the plug-in and Akai unlimited flexibility can have their cake and eat it too. If there are enough of you to make it a cheap enough add on then more power to the group. I am open minded (and wordy as hell... I don't even want to know how long this post is already).

But, I might as well continue as I have a lot to say (as I can see you all do).

If your Ikey breaks you can send it and get it replaced.

If you have multiple licenses from different companies and send it in broken that is a new one on me. But, one way or another the companies would have to figure it out for you. I'll try to find out a more specific answer to this question as I am sure there is one.

If you lose your Ikey then it is like losing a piece of hardware. Does anybody replace your hard drive if you lose it? Your computer? Your Ipod? In this case though you have a license which does allow you to get a second license for much less than having to buy the whole thing again. I am not sure of the price of additional licenses but I will find out. But, trust me, I know that people don't like to have to pay extra for something they already own (unless they want to have multiple machines running it at the same time or just pay for back ups). But, sorry, I come from the world of hardware where if I want a back up I have to go buy one (and have done for speakers, mics, hard drives and plenty of gear). If I own something I take pride in it and keep track of it so I don't lose it because it is worth a lot. Just because a USB key fits in your hand doesn't meant it isn't worth a lot (a diamond ring is even smaller.... how often would you lose that?).

Look, I don't expect to convert dongle-haters. Some people have their particular reasons because of certain experiences or software they use or their computer system etc. But, it is important to understand the details. These concerns and issues don't apply to everyone. In fact, not to most users.

Now, this is our company forum. I am going to ask that we don't have general USB keys are good or evil threads in here. We all know it has been an endless debate in other parts of KVR and that is where that debate belongs if you still want to go round and round. Telebunke and other veterans will tell you that no one ever wins that argument. It's an endless debate as both sides are right. Copy protection may suck but copy protection is necessary. If you can change the world and make everyone be honest and buy the products then perhaps it will go away.

That said, I want to clarify something very important. Sonic Reality makes mainly sample collections (being a sound developer naturally) and those are not protected. In fact, most of our products are not (including the original Miroslav libraries which are now our products too). So, part of our business model is based on taking chances and trusting our users. Speaking specifically of esoundz customers there is a high degree of trust and a great relationship we have with our customers (mostly thanks to KVR and those that participate in this company forum). We stand behind you guys every way we can and would not allow you to be without options in a difficult situation should you be in one.

[Joseph Burrell]

Wow, you are wordy as hell.

[mike85021]

...
It costs us money to have this extra copy protection and I hadn't factored that in intitially when we came up with the MSRP. For that and many other reasons the list price will eventually go up but we didn't adjust the price for the launch period.
Squids

So we end up paying for the inconvenience of copy protection, you (supposedly) 'make money' by protecting your investment, and the pirates eventually crack the software anyway.

Complicated protection schemes just don't add up. Cakewalk is a shining example of a successful company using modest a protection procedure.

I am soooOOOOOooooo glad I was alerted to this before making another eSoundz purchase.

It comes down to this. If you're not bothered by a dongle or some other scheme, fine. I am bothered by it, and eSoundz is now fourth on my no fly zone, which includes NI, AAS and Steinberg.

Sorry, Squids, I just don't buy it. Literally and figuratively.

[Squids]

I just think we should be told in advance.

I for one will NOT purchase Philharmonik without knowing if a dongle is required, and certainly will not purchase it if one is.

I've socked enough money into eSoundz to be treated with some respect. If the company feels that I have to be cuffed and monitored to be trusted, that is tentamont to being treated as a criminal, pre-judged and no jury.

I have no pirated software, and my biggest and longest loyalty is and will be to Cakewalk because they have avoided such anti-piracy schemes. It's overkill, and it doesn't stop the hackers anyway.

I think I explained why it couldn't be announced until that news was made official by IK. No one is stuck and we deal with it fairly which is as respectful as esoundz can be in this kind of situation. Suggesting otherwise is a damaging and unappreciated commentary that we do not deserve. I know my posts are long but please read them if you guys are going to make any accusations coming our way. Copy protection is the very last stage and while we added a $400 reverb near the end which no one seemed to mind, we also added a popular form of copy protection.

Thinking that this is done to punish the legit users is so absurd it is rediculous. You really think we WANT to punish you? Really??? Tell me, what CEO of what company is responding to your post at midnight? Could it even be possible that I intend to punish ANY of our users? Come on. Read my posts. This product needs to be protected. People's arguments about hackers does not mean all you think it means. As mentioned before, hardware key protection at the very least cuts down the friend to friend sharing that goes on which even if you consider to be just for every one person there are two people actually using it on average then that is HALF the return. HALF! Dude, seriously. HALF. That is a massive difference (and unfortunately it is a lot more than half that would otherwise be lost).

Let me put it to you guys a different way. Would you rather have the product by twice the price than have a USB key? Which makes you suffer more? I piece of plastic or more $$ on your other plastic (ie Visa card)? Imagine we have to make that decision to say "Hmmmm... in order to recoup massively and then make a profit we have to either minimize the amount of copying that goes on or raise the price to make up for it". So, in order to keep prices down we have the protection.

Look, I value each and every one of your support. I really do. But, I have to say that anyone who deprives themselves of a product this good because of a piece of plastic that can go in a USB slot or a $10 hub that at this point I'd consider buying as a gift if it made that much of a difference (when you're saving $3,500 on the collection thanks to me in the first place already... not to mention the crossgrade discount that I pushed for)... is just missing out. Isn't the most important thing what the actual product does for the price?

I really think it is just one of those things that people like to take sides on with forums. I can't respond like this to every post so hopefully you guys can read what I said and take it to heart. Our intentions are good. There are some sacrifices on all our part for a product like this to exist.

[Squids]

Wow, you are wordy as hell.

You just noticed? That was even the edited version btw.

[Squids]

Yo, loophead. I understand that you are stuck on refusing to use a USB Key. But, please be civilized around here and tone it down a bit please. I can see you are passionate but we speak more politely to each other in this forum. Thanks. I don't want to have to moderate your posts just because you speak so graphically. Also, people appreciate that Jason comes on here which is Sonic Reality's forum (not IK's). If he's on here in his spare time to offer a word then I don't think anyone here appreciates a poster essentially telling him to shove off. Jason means well and I thank him for joining in. He doesn't make any of the decisions regarding this stuff and just does his job (quite well I might add).

If you have an issue with the copy protection of this plug-in then I am as high up as you can talk to since we did the sounds and I voted to have them protected. I am sorry but we have to protect our products in the best ways possible. We're not inventing something new here. We using a system that does what it is supposed to do, even if you don't like it.

I am one of those idealists who likes to try to make everyone happy. But, I know that realistically that's not possible. Let's keep the conversation on a friendly level though and respect each other more. No one is making you buy the product! You have a choice. I, for one, would not want to be without it! Same thing for AmpliTube 2 which I happen to have one of the few copies of in the world. I will make so much awesome music with these two pieces that the last thing I care about is that it needed a USB Key. My ProTools system needs not only an ILok card but a PCI card and a whole rack of gear. So do thousands of studios all over the world. They don't complain, they just use the stuff.

All that said, Loophead, NYC rules. You're entitled to your opinion. We get it. You're against it. REALLY against it... almost to the point where it looks like it touches a nerve. If it bothers you that much then simply don't get it. It's just a product. We're not talking about BIG BROTHER and all kinds of bigger issues. Just an orchestral module. No vampires or nazis or terrorists... just music making stuff!

[Squids]

Jason,

Can you say if/when this donglization will affect existing products (Sampletank, Amplitube, Sonik Synth 2, etc)?

Doug

I don't think Jason can comment more than what I've said. ST2.1 will not deal with the IKey at all. All other current products like AT and SS2 do not. Will they in the future? Perhaps. I've explained before the reasoning why they might or might not. It does not depend on people protesting in a forum. Even if I am personally hurt or esoundz is that will not affect the decision because it is based on global sales which is in stores (that are mostly FOR copy protection because they too lose out when copies are shared) and spans far beyond forum posters. If there is a problem with using the key (especially on any technical level) then it may not be used. Philharmonik is the first one to use the IKey so we'll see.

I personally would like to have SS2 sounds protected better. But, that doesn't mean it will happen any time soon. No official word on anything but Philharmonik using the IKey at this time.

[Caleb]

I'm still in a wait-and-see mode at the moment.

To tell you the truth I absolutely despise C/R. Maybe I'll even find that I like this a little better.

Squids - I don't suppose any of your testing covered PCI bus throughput. This is what concerned me mostly about some USB devices as Scope cards rely very heavily on the ability to transfer info to and from the CPU quickly especially in the case of reverbs.

I'm sure there are many Scope owners that are not only using USB with their Scope cards but also using these hardware keys quite successfully. I have found that I haven't needed USB in my studio until now - but I'll give it a go anyway.

I was actually going to have to upgrade my system to use Philharmonik anyway as I run Windows 98SE on my music computer. It might be worthwhile getting one of those expensive but reliable Carillon rack-mounted systems.

I'm still most distressed at having to use Philharmonik with a mechanical foreskin ( ), but for the moment I'm over it.

It will be a different story if the thing starts giving me problems though.

Ironically, I can now install the thing on computers all over Melbourne so that if I'm visiting a particular place I can still use my gear....weird!

Caleb

[zai]

Hey Squids, don't get discourage about this...I'm behind you on this one. This is a business decision...and IK used to be a "small" company...and now it has grown to become a driving force in the industry.

If the product is good...there are people out there will do anything to get their hands on it...be it legal or not. I don't like the idea of the dongle...but, you have to do what you have to do.

If people don't like the dongle...don't buy the product...you have to live with a lot of things in life that you're not happy with...but yet you continue to live. I understand that if all music company has their own dongle...we'll be stuck with a lot of them. But...it's no different than keeping a piece of paper having your license number on it...yes, and you might also need to buy a USB hub...for all the dongles.... But compare to the price of ths software, it's not that much.

As I understands it...Philharmonik will come with a dongle of its own...and rest assure that you'll be able to transfer all your IK products' license onto the dongle....

Squids...I know there are a lot of people out there don't like the idea...I for one don't as well. But I'm willing to give it a try...and live with it...just hopd that Philharmonik is well worth this effort! :p

Zai

[Squids]

Sorry but the dongle kills it for me. I know too many unhappy Cubase users to trust them.

See ya,
Gordon

Same here. While I have enjoyed reading posts from Squids and believe him to be an upfront guy, this is where I get off the IK bus. Unfortunately, that also includes Sonic Reality given their close partnership.

Time to find another sampler and compatible libraries. I'm glad I didn't sink too much cash into their products...

So, you skip Sonic Reality and ignore that we also support most of the other software sampler formats too? Thanks. I am glad we go to that effort only to be tossed away because of our "close partnership". We don't only make sounds in SampleTank format.

Are these comments made to hurt us? They do you know. In many ways.

This protest to a simple common copy protection key has gotten so out of hand. By even posting negative comments like this it is like you guys want to suggest everyone get off the bus. If this is what we deserve after how many years of being here nearly every day with you guys then... that's unbelievable. I guess I was wrong to think that these efforts build customer loyalty when obviously people are willing to drop you completely for deciding to make one product out of over a hundred actually have a better form of copy protection?

Can you guys think a little bit about the people that do care on this end that also have feelings and are just doing their best before you say damaging comments like this? If you enjoy my posts and believe me to be an upfont guy then try to see the bigger picture. Maybe this particular product isn't for you if you are sure you won't use a key. Most musicians I know who make music professionally or in some serious way would certainly not let a USB key stop them from using a product like this that they want so badly. I certainly wouldn't. I am not just saying that either. I have a USB key chain. It's a part of owning the products I like. I don't even THINK about it.