Why are sampled pianos so flat?

[Kalamata Kid]

Hello All,

I listen mostly to classical music from my CD’s.
The pianos sound great. I listen to "Traumerei." by
Schumann. The first two beautiful notes are single
notes. They sound beautiful. Why do the sampled
single notes form The Grand and 290 Bosendorfer
sound so flat?

Isn’t recording and sampling pretty much the same?
Don’t they both try to capture the beauty of the instrument?

I add FX but can’t get the great sound I hear form single
piano notes for classical CD collection.
Is everybody adding some magical FX or a tweak that
I am not aware. Sine I am a inexperienced in the area
this certainly is a possibility.

By the way from all the demos I cave heard on-line the
best to my ear is the artvista.net.
http://artvista.net/VGP%20Demos/VGP_Imp ... n_Demo.mp3
The demo plays a slow piece so one can hear individual notes
to decay. All other piano demos are of fast music making
comparisons difficult.

Check out the Piano shootout
http://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.html

My main question.
Why does my single notes on my CD digital classical music
pianos sound better than the sampled single note in The Grand,
290 Bosendorfer, etc.

[meroveus]

EQ

[blümchen]

My impression is the following:

- Most digital (sampled) pianos have really heavy problems with realistic dynamic playing, decaying and sustaining.

- The real world ambients (especially the body resonances) are often left out or unsatisfactory recorded while sampling (to make it more multi purpose in sound), which finally leads to flat "sound", when played pure then.

>>> The reason may be often a wrong (or not that ideal) positioning of the recording microphones ...

- The velocity curves and layers are often not realistic enuff or even not satisfactory mapped. (And most keyboard users even have merely unwighted plastic master keys...)

- dynamics and frequency spectrum often seem to be made flat intentionally (and obviously sometinmes is limiting/compression or ather dynamics modifications used while recording or afterwards).

- also it seems, that the post recording editing and EQing is often too much done in a direct comparsion to other existing products.

I got that impression because in the last time all sampled pianos seem to sound quite equal (which is not the case in the real world ...)

- Generally the mid frequency range is mostly overdriven on sampled pianos. ("I wanna sound loud like a Korg M1" syndrome)


- Finally, sampled pianos mostly will be performed by relatively flat and velocity quantized MIDI demo files, which don't really replicate the dynamic range and capabilities of the sampled instrument.

And playing a real piano is not like playing a keyboard.

All in all that finally sums up to the "flat" digital result.

.

[zircon]

Well, part of the reason many sampled pianos sound "flat" is that the notes are sampled individually. The natural resonant properties of the piano, which become especially present when the sustain pedal is used, is not usually captured in samples. However, now, with Kontakt 2, people have developed sympathetic resonance and other such scripts that breathe new life into piano samples. In my opinion, the latest generation of libraries that take advantage of this script are realistic enough to fool just about anyone.

[Stupid American Pig]

Im interested to here the results of kontakt 2. Ive always thought that GIANT piano sound sets are a waste of time and disk space. The main problem I usually hear is that the sets only use 4-5 velocity layers, and pianos change timbre quite a bit as velocity increases. I think that at least 4 low level and 10-15 mid- hi level velocity layers are required to sound realistic enough. I think that sympathetic resonance is also very critical as holding the sustain pedal and playing 3-4 notes on a sampled piano sounds very harsh to my ears, since each note was sampled individually, the resonances in the piano "fight" each other, and sounds muddy and fake. On a real piano, you can play 10ths and hear if the piano is in tune(it will pulse), on every sample set Ive heard, it doesnt pulse like a real piano.

[AKJ]

have not demoed it, but maybe Ivory will do the trick

[Kalamata Kid]

Hello,

My question is very basic. One note, one velocity.
The first note in "Traumerei." by Schumann. That first
note sounds beautiful. In other piano pieces with single
notes it is the same. Beautiful timbre.

Now compare one note, one velocity of a sampled piano.
Whether The Grand or 290 Bosendorfer or other. They
sound flat.

I can go to a Piano store and strike one note and
get excited. This never happened with sampled piano.
So single notes played slow in almost any sequence
can get me excited. On my classical music CD’s
single notes in isolation sound great. The are digitalized
from real pianos same as sampled pianos but why such a
difference in quality?

I suppose the recording engineer is different than a
sampling engineer? Some pianos are sampled with
ambience and still cant enjoy the sound.

BTW where can he sounds of the NI Akoustik Piano !! be
demoed?

I know I am repeating my self but the example of what I consider
my favorite sample piano is the artvista.net.
http://artvista.net/VGP%20Demos/VGP_Imp ... n_Demo.mp3
The demo plays a slow piece so one can hear individual notes
to decay. All other piano demos are of fast music making
comparisons difficult.

zircon do you have any links that demonstrates the sympathetic
resonance ?

Many people rave about The Grand and the 290 Bosendorfer
So maybe I am doing some thing wrong.
meroveus Suggested I try EQ. I will experiments with it
and give my results. Any other suggestions?

[zircon]

Kalamata Kid: You can find more information about PSR (Piano Sympathetic Resonance) tech at the following site.

http://music.mezo.com/

[MauroR]

I hope for NI Akoustik Piano. Let's wait.

[Barf]

Reverb can make even MDA-piano sound good...

[pitchdrifter]

This PSR script is very interesting.. anyone using it yet? I'm curious for an A/B comparison of VGP normal vs VGP with it's adaption of the PSR script on say the VGP demo. Zircon are the person behind the PSR project, or is someone you know?

Markus

[Wopelka]

the samples should be as dry as possible, in order to be usable in any mixing condition. the sound has to be "enhanced" with FXs.

to recreate the ambiance, use a reverb, a pianoverb if possible.

that said, a sampled piano will always remain a "virtual" piano. with todays technology it'd be really hard to sample the almost infinite possibilities of hitting a piano key.

[zircon]

This PSR script is very interesting.. anyone using it yet? I'm curious for an A/B comparison of VGP normal vs VGP with it's adaption of the PSR script on say the VGP demo. Zircon are the person behind the PSR project, or is someone you know?

Markus

Ha.. no, my programming days are behind me. I just think it's a cool script.

[Kalamata Kid]

Hello,

I am comparing the striking one single note at one velocity
on the "Traumerei." by Schumann from a audio CD VS.
a single note one velocity from an ambient sampled piano
and a dry with fx. I have not found one sampled piano to sound
as good. I am one of the few complaining so I must be doing
something wrong.

I will try eq and reverb again. I have the PSP PianoVerb and
this helps.

If all fails I may try Zircon’s recommendation PSR (Piano
Sympathetic Resonance) http://music.mezo.com/

I like the 4Front piano and Rain Piano, but right now the
artvista virtual piano is my favorite which I may ultimately
purchase. I hade hoped that the Ivory by synthogy would be
good considering the great reviews is getting. Heard the
demo and I was very disappointed. Good! as the artvista
virtual piano is a lot le$$.

I would like to hear a NI Akoustik Piano demo than finally
decide. any links?

[Frippertronix]

Hello,

I am comparing the striking one single note at one velocity
on the "Traumerei." by Schumann from a audio CD VS.
a single note one velocity from an ambient sampled piano
and a dry with fx. I have not found one sampled piano to sound
as good. I am one of the few complaining so I must be doing
something wrong.

I will try eq and reverb again. I have the PSP PianoVerb and
this helps.

If all fails I may try Zircon’s recommendation PSR (Piano
Sympathetic Resonance) http://music.mezo.com/

I like the 4Front piano and Rain Piano, but right now the
artvista virtual piano is my favorite which I may ultimately
purchase. I hade hoped that the Ivory by synthogy would be
good considering the great reviews is getting. Heard the
demo and I was very disappointed. Good! as the artvista
virtual piano is a lot le$$.

I would like to hear a NI Akoustik Piano demo than finally
decide. any links?

I have PMI Grandioso Steinway D 24 Bit and Gigapiano 2 for Gigastudio 3. They do in fact come closer than other piano samples I've heard. PMI's Emperor 24 bit Bosendorfer 290 is also quite good. The 4 front piano isn't his best sample plug---I far prefer his Rhodes. If I were you I'd give up on less expensive plugs and concentrate on the cream of the crop if you want realism. You might try going to PMI's website and listening to their pianos.

What you're complaining about isn't at all limited to pianos. Samples are notorious for sterility, and I don't know but maybe it goes all the way back to the GM sets where everything was supposed to sound "the same" (i.e. equally lifeless). That's why I actually like some of my soundfonts more than some of my more expensive sample sets because whoever put together the soundfonts wasn't trying to be "professional" and ended up recording a much more lifelike sound.

I also agree about resonances and room ambience. Even a lot of the samples done which include some body resonance I think do it in a very controlled and much less dramatic way than the recordings of actual performances. There again, they are trying to keep things sounding more uniform so that sound shaping can be done with effects. Unfortunately it strips out a lot of the natural quality of the instrument.

One of the companies who I think samples with a bit more attention to lifelike quality is Sonic Implants, but their stuff ain't cheap.