Dongle?? WIll Philharmonik have one??

[Squids]

I'm glad we're having some civil discussion now! Took almost 7 pages to get here though!

To all who are jumping ship because of this USB hardware key business, you've obviously made up your mind so I'm not going to preach (probably just as well, after Squids' megaposts!). I just hope you make lots of music with whatever you end up using. Ultimately that's why we're all here - because we love making music! The tools are just that - tools. In the end it's the music that matters.

-Kim.

Now THAT is a good note to fall asleep to. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzz

[Sascha Franck]

yeah, this is a tough one i must admit, usb pings and takes cpu cycles and those syncosoft dongles are pretty cpu hungry.

I somewhat doubt that enabling USB per se would cause too much CPU cycles to be wasted, at least not on nowadays machines.
Regarding dongle calls it might be a completely different story, but Logic is still outperfoming most (if not all) audio engines, so it clearly can't be that (unless badly implemented).

If you lose your Ikey then it is like losing a piece of hardware

Well. That's why I'm buying (or licensing) software. Usually it doesn't come with much maintainance hassles as it's just bits'n'bytes.

However, I really recommend that you don't use a dongle for Amplitube 2. I mean, I'd recommend no dongles for about anything, but with Amplitube 2 it might become even more important as people may want to use it live - and dongles get unplugged quickly, so on a busy day on stage you never know what will happen, especially since guitar rigs (forgive the pun ) sometimes are more exposed than keyboard rigs.

Btw, I do understand people people protecting their products. And of course, sample libraries are even more opened to theft.
I mean, come one, there's tons of "free" string and orchestra soundfonts floating around - who in the world would sample an orchestra and release it for free, in a format which, until a few years ago, was only running properly on the cheesiest of all audio cards? So, I know what you're talking about.

I also do understand that sample library developers tend to encrypt their top of the line libraries, so the samples and patches can't be ripped off them easily.
But just as of lately it's been getting ridiculous. Not sure whether you've been reading the thread, but I've been planning to purchase Kick Ass Brass. Would have chosen the EXS version, as it'd load fine in Kontakt too and as I'd have all options to create my own patches (I'm pretty much of a tweaker).
Now, I would understand if they decided to only release it in Kompakt powered format. That'd leave at least some tweaking options. Maybe ST or SS format would've been fine as well, as I think their engines allow for quite some good tweaking options too. But hell no, AMG is trying to reinvent the wheel, so KAB is now coming with a less than mediocre player which is even missing some rather basic functions. And of course they cancelled offering the "open" versions of KAB any longer.
They lost one potential customer for sure.

So, to resume: A few years back sample libraries where coming in "open" format (ok, AKAI discs aren't exactly open, but each and every softsampler will read them more or less fine).
In times of internet access for everbody, sample format converters (which are one of the evil things for library developers I reckon... I mean, see my comment about the "free" soundfonts) and the likes, sample library developers seem to have thought they'd rather supply their libraries in whichever encrypted format that could only be used by their own playback engine, in addition it needed to be registered. This is somewhat fine, yet it allready dissapoints the tweaker in me, plus it obviously makes using those libraries a bit harder. I just can't transfer them onto whichever machine I like without having to deal with additional registration processes.
Regarding the very last point you may be telling me that a dongle might be a good solution - but it only partially is.
Just imagine I'd be working with the library on one machine only for layouts. At the same time imagine the dongle would be holding both my sample library and sequencer licenses.
Now, as my mix proceeds, I might decide to switch on an additional machine, to reduce my sequencing machines CPU load, and have all my luxuriously large samples running from that additional machine, using some other VST host. In an ideal world I'd just copy the samples and patches over to that machine. Impossible with a dongle strategy, as I wouldn't be able to run my sequencer anymore (which, you remember, is using the same dongle as my libraries).
And no, I don't think this is an all too esoteric example, I've actually been doing pretty much similar things allready.
Also, it'd only be me using the sample library, no other person would be using it at the same time (which I think is another thing covered in license agreements...).
Btw, this very scenario is covered more or less fine by C/R protection, as I can at least authorize my samples twice. On the downside, I can't take them with me onto any machine (something a dongle allows for, at least more or less...).

As said, I do very well know about the problems arising with open format sample libraries, I'd even go as far as to say that around 50% (at least) of the free soundfonts around are using copyrighted samples in one or the other way.
So there needs to be something done about it.
But, on the other hand, the encryption and protection tactics are cleary getting in the way of some loyal customers. The worst point being that it only gets in their way, users of pirated stuff wouldn't suffer from some problems. No, I don't intend starting a discussion about that, been there too often... all I wanted to point out is that there's some more or less obvious disadvantages in using dongles.

Really, I'm not blaming the developers (oh well, I am blaming some of them, but usually that's got nothing to do with copy protection ). But as a loyal user I'm not all that happy about the situation either.

Sorry for clogging up your forum with such a lengthy post.

[Caleb]

To all who are jumping ship because of this USB hardware key business, you've obviously made up your mind so I'm not going to preach.

I'm not jumping anywhere at the moment.
Sorry to disappoint you Kim -

I went from hopping mad to mad to pensive.
I'm seeing some advantages to the hardware key.

It's good for those of us who are always replacing harddrives and re-installing operating systems - well in comparison to the old C/R system that I really hated.

I think as long as it doesn't f#@% with me too much we should get on OK - mister hardware key and I.

I guess this is just a reflection on how malleable I can be for the sake of an IKM/SR product. That's certainly something positive to take out of the whole issue.

I repeat from an earlier post, this is my most eagerly anticipated VSTi product since I got into computer music at the very start of VSTi's.

If I missed out on this because I was pissed off with the copy protection......

Caleb

[dougsyo]

I'm glad we're having some civil discussion now! Took almost 7 pages to get here though!

To all who are jumping ship because of this USB hardware key business, you've obviously made up your mind so I'm not going to preach (probably just as well, after Squids' megaposts!).

Well, just to be clear - I am not anti-SR, I am not anti-IK. In fact, I believe that ST2LE+SS1 was the first product I was willing to bite the C/R bullet on, as much as I still loathe it.

I just want to know up-front about even more consumer-hostile copy protection like dongles. I remember reactions when they opened Halion3 and people found an unwanted and unexpected dongle inside, sitting there like a puppy dog accident. You can take a pig, put a ribbon on its tail, give it a bath, and paints its toenails IKey-red, but it's still a pig which goes for my view on dongles.

I am glad that for the time being I won't have to deal with dongles on other IK/SR products. I had been looking at SS2 for later this month (pending the outcome of union contract negotiations), but wanted to be clear on this matter once it arose.

Doug

[telebunke]

Music is the key

tele

[zai]

It's a business decision...don't hear people complaining about the free CSR implementation in Philharmonik.

"Why are you giving us free things?", "I don't want more combi presets!", "Why is ST2.1 upgrade free when you purchase ST2.0XL?"

How come no body is crying about these things instead?

Zai

P.S. It's way too early in the morning...just wanted to type something here...finish feeding my son...man, he's now asleep...and I'm FULLY awake! :p

[Rellik]

If there's no efficiency issue, then there's no real problem for me, I guess.

One more thing I'd like cleared up:

If the dongle breaks/is lost, we have to buy a secondary license?! That's the impression I got from one of Squids' posts. When you lose the key to your house, you don't have to re-buy the house at a lower price - you just buy a new key. The key is not the product - the software is the product, and the key is only a key to that software - it would be crazy to have to re-buy the license, even at a lower price, just because something happened to the dongle.

One other thing I'd like cleared up:

I can install Philharmonik both on my home computer and on my school laptop, just the same as with the current setup, correct? I just need to bring the key back and forth with me? That seems like a fine idea - just need to make sure to remember it.

[baggio]

If the dongle breaks/is lost, we have to buy a secondary license?! That's the impression I got from one of Squids' posts.

I seriously hope you have misread that.

[harmony gardens]

I was looking at my member page and realized that it was a year ago tomorrow that I placed my first eSoundz order. It was the first SS group buy. I remember my reluctance to jump in, and my first call to esoundz where Squids answered the phone and we talked for about half an hour. I jumped in, and was very happy with the deal.

Over the last year, I've been very happy with every purchase I've made from esoundz. I've had countless hours of fun with my soundz, and the company has always treated me right. I've read every word of this thread, and Squids answers. He's answered us with the type of honest yet firm responses I've come to respect Squids for.

I've gone through a whole range of emotions over this, and at the end of the day, I want Philharmonik, I like the company, I like Squids, and I'm not going to cancel my order.

[Caleb]

No I don't think that's the case at all.
As inconvenient and sucky as the copy protection may be, it's pretty clear that SR and IKM aren't blood-suckers.

I believe you will just need to buy a new hardware key which was $30-40 on IK's site if I remember rightly and then you'll be able to transfer your licence onto it - or they'll do it for you when you re-purchase the key.

That seems kinda reasonable to me.

I would be most surprised if it was too much more painful than that.

I believe the double-charge was related to whether you wanted to have two keys at the same time. In which case you are really purchasing two licences - hence the double-charge.

I'm sure there are a few things that still need to be fine-tuned in this strategy as this is the first product either company have gone forward with with this type of copy-protection. I'm even expecting maybe a few teething problems the first time this scenario occurs.

But I think SR at least are showing a pretty strong customer-focused face at this point regardless of what opinions may be on such a device, so I believe there will be a strong commitment to getting everything sorted out as quickly and painlessly as possible when the time comes.

Caleb

[Kim Lajoie]

Just imagine I'd be working with the library on one machine only for layouts. At the same time imagine the dongle would be holding both my sample library and sequencer licenses.
Now, as my mix proceeds, I might decide to switch on an additional machine, to reduce my sequencing machines CPU load, and have all my luxuriously large samples running from that additional machine, using some other VST host. In an ideal world I'd just copy the samples and patches over to that machine. Impossible with a dongle strategy, as I wouldn't be able to run my sequencer anymore (which, you remember, is using the same dongle as my libraries).
And no, I don't think this is an all too esoteric example, I've actually been doing pretty much similar things allready.

If you're doing this sort of thing, you might already have a separate sequencer hardware key. What we're saying is that IK are using the same USB key system as Steinberg, and that the licenses are transferrable between physical USB keys. If you want to separate your licenses onto multiple hardware keys, you can get a second iKey and transfer whatever licenses you want onto it. It's flexible. You can have a separate iKey for each product, or you can consolidate them so all your licenses are on one USB key for easy management or transportation.

-Kim.

[Mr. Tunes]

I've gone through a whole range of emotions over this, and at the end of the day, I want Philharmonik, I like the company, I like Squids, and I'm not going to cancel my order.

theme to the Young and the Restless(midi)

and



i'm just having a little fun here. dont take offense to me.

[Meffy]

Is it possible to have a backup key -- that is, if I have two of these, one for an IK product and one for another unnamed product (the same kind, obviously) then will I be able to transfer the same licenses onto BOTH of them simultaneously? Shuffling individual licenses back and forth from one dongle to another is of little use to me if backing up isn't possible. It would help avoid wasting USB connectors, but that's just one aspect of this issue.

The idea is that if something happens to one dongle, I'd prefer (1) not to have to wait until I can afford to order another dongle, and (2) not to have to wait until the order arrives.

At present this is all hypothetical for me but it could be a critical issue for someone else.

[Kim Lajoie]

It's good for those of us who are always replacing harddrives and re-installing operating systems

That's the idea. That's one of the benefits of moving to a hardware key system. If you need to reinstall your operating system, or upgrade your computer, or even buy a new comptuter, the process is much simpler. Just install the software, plug in the USB key, and you're good to go.

I guess this is just a reflection on how malleable I can be for the sake of an IKM/SR product. That's certainly something positive to take out of the whole issue.

We certainly appreciate the trust you and other users have of us! Personally, my first (legit!) copy-protected software was Sonic Synth - the original!). I certainly know what it's like to take a leap of faith and trust with this kind of thing. The decision to adopt a new copy protection system is not taken lightly, and I'm sure that the ultimate goal for this is so everyone benefits. Customers get better (and more easily-understandable) terms of usage, we get more sales, and the boffins at Sonic Reality and IK Multimedia continue to develop exciting and innovative products for all of us to use.

If I missed out on this because I was pissed off with the copy protection......

That's the point I was making before. We're in this because we love making music, and we're excited about Philharmonik because of the music-making possibilities it offers! It'd be such a shame to miss out on something like this just because of a little red thing sticking out of back of your computer. Most of the time I don't even think about my green Steinberg key in the back of my computer. I don't even care that it's there. I just focus on using Cubase to compose music, produce CDs, and sequence film scores. I don't even think about the hardware key.

-Kim.

[loophead]

Thinking that this is done to punish the legit users is so absurd it is rediculous.... Could it even be possible that I intend to punish ANY of our users? ... dongle protection at the very least cuts down the friend to friend sharing that goes on which even if you consider to be just for every one person there are two people actually using it on average then that is HALF the return... Our intentions are good. There are some sacrifices on all our part for a product like this to exist.

"at the very least cuts down the friend to friend sharing..." You are flatly calling us criminals. To a man we all are thieves. Well not everyone 'shares' in this manner. Your true colors are showing quite clearly here dude. This is why I will not support you and others who feel that the solution is at the cost of the legitimate user.

"there are some sacrifices on all our part..." Sacrifices on MY part ? I dont need to sacrifice to you. What planet are you on man ?

... Gnu, you seem to miss the offense I was reacting to. I can understand it if you don't like a product that has a dongle. But, writing off esoundz and/or Sonic Reality products on the whole when they are not all using dongles is not only really limiting for you but also comes off in a sort of "punishing" way... I don't think it is what we deserve for all we've done and continue to do for our customers to earn their business, loyalty or support. .

Oh you see when it is aimed at you ! How convenient, how self serving. Look squids I figure you will delete this post as you deleted others (I dont know...to save the children from foul language...) whatever its your forum and I'm a guest. I harbor no ill will towards you or your product. I just feel you are being incredibly disingenuous.

You can not have it both ways. You treat us as faithful customers or you treat us as thieves. You can not do both simultaneously. If you try, you will be called on it. I have been socking away for MVP, if the USB Key had not lost me your comments certainly have.

This is not a personal attack but a defensive one. Can you not see that THIS is how YOU have just treated us ? And justification is merely that, a justification. I am no thief. I will not support those who TREAT me like one. And dude it is plain as day from your posts.

Sad f'in day.