Dongle?? WIll Philharmonik have one??

[Kim Lajoie]

I had a Steinberg dongle that bent soooooo easily, these things are bound to break, especially if you use a laptop.

How recent was that? Both my Stenberg USB keys are rock-solid. Seriously, I could imagine them being stepped on (even with stilettos!) without them breaking. However, my old Cubase VST 5 key (it hung off a parallel port! Now THAT's a time warp!) didn't fill me with confidence. It had a pass-through for a printer, but I never tried it.

Anyway, my point is that the technology for building USB keys is always getting better. USB key manufacturers are aware of this concern, and I'm sure that making the keys strong and damage-resistant is a priority for them. After all, if you've got hundred of dollars riding on that key, it needs to be durable! I'm sure that the hardware key used by Philharmonik will be strong and durable.

-Kim.

[Kim Lajoie]

How many times during the use of the plug will it call the dongle? Can we put the dongle in to open the program, then take it out?

Good question.
I'd like to know the answer to that too.

Caleb

It's likely that the USB key will need to be plugged in for the whole time you're using the software.

-Kim.

[Kim Lajoie]

Ok guys, it's now almost 1:30am in my time zone. I've got a long day tomorrow (not only addressing your hardware key concerns here!) so I've got to finally call it a night.

My advice is to sit tight, and wait for IK to make an official announcement. Too much speculation usually just makes things more confusing. Relax. All will be revealed.

-Kim.

[telebunke]

I suggest opening up a SR company policy thread, that is read only for the public and post questions & answers there - who would read this whole long thread to find out about the iKey? Only mad people like me.

Questions that should be covered:
Process when you break the key
Process when you loose the key or it gets stolen (ups, another pirate, hang him )
Price of the key
compatibility with (e.g. Steinberg keys)

Allowing people to have a replacement key handy sounds nice but then SR is back to the point where people can buy 1 copy and "share" it with their friend.

tele

[zircon]

I for one applaud Squids on his professional, cool-headed, and mature responses to the many rabid dongle-haters who have popped up in this thread (who have seemed to direct some of their anger towards Squids himself). While I don't like copy protection either, I realize it's necessary, especially when such an investment goes into a product.

Squids, keep up the good work, don't let a handful of very vocal people get to you

[Beardedone]

Just for the record. I love what Squids and Sonic Reality have accomplished and bear no ill feelings.

I simply refuse to use dongles of any kind period.

[dougsyo]

so does this mean we can finally sell IK products second hand if they have the key?

Yes, that's one of the benefits of moving to a hardware key.

Provided that such sale is actually allowed by IK/SR/etc. While it is a potential benefit, it's not guaranteed yet...

Doug

[Sascha Franck]

You can have a separate iKey for each product, or you can consolidate them so all your licenses are on one USB key for easy management or transportation.

Believe me, I will NEVER do that midst of a project.
And no, my secondary host doesn't need a key as its developer is just a kickass person and I can install it on as many machines as I want to (in case you haven't guessed allready, I'm talking about eXT).

[Sascha Franck]

Erm... so you're using a dongle for protection so I can't share the program with some friends?
How could I share it if it was C/R protected then?
In any case, I'd need to hack it... oh yes, ph34R my l337 h4x0RiNg 5Ki115.

[gnu23]

Maybe it's just me, but there has to be a better way than dongles.

If piracy is an issue, have "you guys", meaning the industry that makes music software, formed a working group that could approach your legislators? If there's that much piracy going on, you can bet national-level law enforcement will help. How about that same group working together to create a robust, dongle-free registration system?

Another good question is, "How much money are you actually losing to piracy?" Is the perceived/actual reward expected from the implementation of a hardware-based copy protection system justified versus the perceived/actual loss of new and existing customers? In other words, has anyone in the industry done a risk analysis?

This is my last post here on this subject, so I'll close with these thoughts.

If there's a justifiable business case for going the dongle route, make that case here and be done with it. But in the interim, please don't warm up the drill with its one-inch concrete-busting bit telling us at the same time, "Oh come on guys! This won't hurt at all." It's about making music? No, it's about making money, so don't pretend otherwise. "I am the great and powerful Oz!...Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" Ok..yeah..sure.

[ericj23]

Erm... so you're using a dongle for protection so I can't share the program with some friends?
How could I share it if it was C/R protected then?
In any case, I'd need to hack it... oh yes, ph34R my l337 h4x0RiNg 5Ki115.

alas the 3 reg codes you get from IK for their products made this stunningly easy when they were using c/r protection

no hacking needed

[loophead]

I'm not putting words in anyones mouth. I am quoting.

There are good ways and bad ways. None are foolproof. I see ilocks on eBay all the time.

I am tired of society putting up with it all. I was at 9/11 my wife and I got covered in the cloud. We later protested the war and the NYC cops were back to their old tricks. Not the place for all this but just because someone tells you its for your own good - its for the greater good etc. does not make it so.

Jason I'm sorry if I offended you but your post was just too much to take. Squids its your forum, I really am not here to make enemies or to give folks trouble. I find you one of the most interesting folks here and I think we have commonality. But the line of this thread is like wading through a cliche document from 'Corporate Inc.' and it amazes me that you dont hear yourselves.

It is sad because I was quite happy with my move to ST2, was about to purchase several libraries and waiting to see MVP (if it has been re-tuned - you all have yet to comment on the notorious non-standard tuning issue with the original MV library)

There are quite a few threads on kvr about pace et. al. and this announcement was quite a shock. I am hoping beyond hope IKM will rethink this issue. Sorry its your forum which this issue landed in. The fact that you feel the key is the tangible form of the investment and not the car is in fact THE issue here.

And I agree with Beardedone. I hold no ill will to you all, I just hate this decision, the 'party line' and the incompatibility with what you say you are saying and what in fact you are clearly saying.

Well lets see what will happen. I will not be investing more in IKM until I know what they are doing.

"Those who give up freedom in the name of safety deserve neither." Ben Franklin

[Squids]

I for one applaud Squids on his professional, cool-headed, and mature responses to the many rabid dongle-haters who have popped up in this thread (who have seemed to direct some of their anger towards Squids himself). While I don't like copy protection either, I realize it's necessary, especially when such an investment goes into a product.

Squids, keep up the good work, don't let a handful of very vocal people get to you

Thanks you guys. It's not easy sometimes and I appreciate when you guys are balancing things out with your support and understanding.

I don't have time at the moment to answer every post because I was up all night last night trying. I am baked (baked squid? sounds yummy). I am behind on work but I will make sure anything that isn't answered by Kim or others or anything that needs a specific reply as soon as I can. I am already looking into a few for you.

A couple of comments responding to things in general. One thing to know about Sonic Reality is that we are a sound developer making sounds for musicians in the formats they use. We use them too (practically all of them) because each one has something different to offer. Maybe you guys choose one or two for your samples but esoundz and Sonic Reality will always be there. We're not about to lock people out even if it means accepting a large percentage of vulnerability to people copying and sharing. But, that is a much bigger picture than (for now) one high end virtual instrument that packs in a high quality reverb and a $4,000+ library. The world is not coming to an end. In fact, you can even buy Miroslav sounds unprotected (albiet for more money) in other sampler formats. But, if you want the plethora of patches and special programming that we could only do with the enhanced ST engine... then it is up to you if it is worth having a key to unlock that treasure of inspiration (ok, that sounded too flowery but I do really mean that... this product is beautiful! Just looking at it is such a different vibe than other software... the wood or something. I like it).

So, specifically to Sasha, thanks for your post and no we are not going that route like other sound developers have and seem to be more and more. We'll do some things that are more protected than others and I am always open to the best solutions for everyone.

On that note, of course I don't call anyone here thieves, Loophead. You might take it that way but of course I don't think that. I wouldn't take my own personal time talking to thieves for one thing. But, I express quite the contrary. I think anyone who even cares enough to be on this forum discussing such matters is one who cares enough to do that. A real thief wouldn't care and just steal it. No point for a thief to even discuss it really, right? Well, maybe, but I don't feel that way anyway if you want to know from the horse's (or Squid's) mouth.

Let me explain that the comment about "on average for every one user there is at least one other sharing it" as I think that was taken the wrong way. It is not directed at YOU or anyone else in this forum. But, it IS a statistic! The real statistic is actually 10 to 1! Even if everyone in this thread or on this forum didn't share one copy that means that there are other people out there then sharing 20 copies each to make up for it... no one knows exactly who is doing what but the point is that this does happen. It's not paranoia either, these are real statistics and although all business decisions are not based on statistics (ie. 99% of our products are still unprotected despite this) a smart business does not ignore statistics and not try to overcome them either... hence, why there are so many companies in the industry seaking the best forms of copy protection they can implement!

Okay, I really do care. We intend to be as fair as possible. I am not the final word in all decisions but I do tend to listen to all sides and I always do my best for you guys. Don't fear too much. You are not dealing with a faceless corporation that doesn't listen to its customers here. We're not "the man" and all that jazz. We're musicians who make tools for other musicians. We want to do products above and beyond the norm and Philharmonik is an example of one. If there is a better solution for any aspect of our products we may explore it. That may be a key it may be something else or nothing at all. The customer is still the most important thing to me which is why we'll continue to offer sounds in muliple formats and platforms. But, sometimes, there may be a case where we think if do X then we can justify charging Y because we expect Z to be the return on investment. That's a part of manufacturing that exists quite often.

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

maybe one day there will be a universal dongle that you can put all your licenses on? then it surely wont be any sweat off anyone's backs. it's already starting with the steinberg dongle and iLoks with digidesign

This idea has popped up a few times on this thread and others. It seems to me that this is NOT the way to go, despite the obvious appeal of carrying around one dongle versus, potentially, dozens. As Kim and Squids have pretty much said, if you lose a dongle, it's gone -- like hardware. You need to repurchase the *contents*, namely the licenses (*possibly* at a somewhat reduced price as second licenses), on the lost dongle *not* just the physical dongle itself.

This only makes sense in the dongle world. If one could easily purchase multiple physical dongles (for a couple of bucks) as safekeeping backups and load them all with the same licenses, one could just as easily hand those (loaded) "backup" dongles to friends - which would defeat the entire purpose of the dongles, in the first place.

So, moving all of your licenses to one universal dongle would be a *huge* risk in the sense that if you lose that one dongle, you've lost all of your software, practically speaking. One sensible suggestion (mentioned earlier in this thread) is to insure the dongle for the price of all software licenses on it. However, that presumes there are insurance companies willing to do this -- and that the price of such insurance is reasonable.

It seems to me that the *far* safer approach is to keep a minimum number of licenses on each dongle so that you minimize your losses in case of problems. That forces you to deal with multiple dongles, of course. And if the whole industry goes this route, every user could be carrying dozens and dozens of dongles around. Oh well, maybe it could become a new fashion trend!

[Beardedone]

"Those who give up freedom in the name of safety deserve neither." Ben Franklin

Great quote!