PODxt Live vs. Vox Tonelab SE

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Funkybot wrote:Modeling is easier but it's not perfect IMO. I think the best route, if you're a serious guitar player, is to own a good tube amp as well as a modeller. I'm currently using Guitarport most of the time, but even with the model packs that bring it up to the amps included in the Vetta series, it still doesn't do everything. Why? Becuase I can't throw an SM57 in front on axis right on the girll, with a BLUE Ball a foot back, and a condensor a few feet back in the room, and use them as needed, etc. Sure Guitar Rig does this, but the guitar tones in Guitar Rig while ok, don't compare to even the Pod series. The technology is almost there but not quite. This will be less of an issue in the near future, but me, I'll still want both. For instance, the best clean tone I ever got from an amp or a modeller was just one BLUE Ball three inches away from the grill of my Twin. It was completely open and just wonderfully balanced. I've never approached that good a sound with a modeler. But in reality, it's a pain in the ass to set up the mics, find the sweet spots, make sure they're all in phase, then find the time when you can actually record without driving everyone around you insane. Meanwhile with a few clicks of my mouse, the Guitarport can get me a great sound rather quickly. In all honesty, I want both in my project studio. Let's face it too, while every big studio has a POD and a bunch of Line 6 gear (hell I imagine a lot of the albums we listen to have Pod's on them somewhere), when you're walking into a studio that's running you anywhere from $40 an hour and up, you're expecting to play through a good amp, and have it sound great. And if you have the right people/gear behind that, you'll get sounds that should make you glad you didn't get use a modeler.

BTW the Sansamp rules on bass, but you'll still probably want something else with it. Either a different more clean DI, like a Countryman, a mic'd bass amp, or even a different modeler. I'm a big fan of the Sansamp with my J-Station for bass, as the J-Station includes bass amps/cabs. The guitar Pod can sound ok, but none of the speaker/mic combos produce the really well round bottom end of something geared specifically for bass. What they need to do is sell some bass models, cabs, mic combos as model packs for the guitar Pod series. But, if you get yourself a nice fat rounded tone off the Sansamp (which isn't hard), and forgoe low end entirely on the Pod, you can get a nice blend of the two signals in a mix with the Pod just providing extra presence and clarity without muddying up the low end the Sansamp is getting you.

Anyway, take everything I said with a grain of salt, different strokes for different folks and all, but hopefully someone finds some of this useful.
I agree with you if you have the proper room for micing the way you suggest, otherwise it's an advanced technique best left alone. When you put a condenser away from amp it's not going to be selective, anything it hears it will pick-up. So your only two choices are to play way to loud which will over power ambient noises, or have a sound proof room. Either way it's without a good room the disadvantages can easily out weigh the advantages...it only takes small noise to screw up a good take.

So while I agree with you on a professional level, and basing it on "real" studios as you have, I disagree with the practicality at the "home recording" level for the average person.

I will say that your use of "if you're a serious guitar player" is a bit elitist and sorry, but a lame thing to say. I consider myself a very serious guitar player, if I wanna get the job done I will find a way and that doesn't always mean throwing money and gear at the problem. I say if you're a serious guitar play you can make a shoe box with rubber bands wrapped around it sound good. A Sansamp GT2 would be more then enough for someone who can play, everything else is gravy...;)
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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Hey Hink, let me rephrase and rethink that statement and say, if you're a serious guitar player you need both a modeler and a real amp. A) I say "serious guitar player" because a lot of people using software amp modelers aren't even using them for guitars, which is cool with me. Then B) if you're playing live on a regular basis, while hauling a real amp to a show sucks, it's just easier to limit yourself to a few good basic tones and if anything using stomp boxes to shape your sound. Now modelling amps and stomp boxes like the PODXT Live might work for some, but why do you need 50 thousand different possible tones live (unless you're in a cover or tribute band)? Plus do you want to be the only guy on stage with no amp, or even worse, be in a band with no amps? Plus it's just easier to accomodate the sound guys who are more ept to deal with mic'ing an amp, then running a long line out to their mixer. So, for these and a few other reasons, yeah, I think if you're "serious" about guitar, you should probably own both. Aside from lugging a big amp, or even a heavy combo (my Twin is over two thirds my body weight) the conveniences of setting up an amp and saying this is my clean sound, I'll use my Rat for heavy distorted sounds, then channel B for a crunchier sound, is easier to me than having to think to myself "ok, preset 1B is the Marshall tone I need on song one, damn...the singer just changed the setlist on the fly, now I need to get to preset 2C for this song to get that vox clean tone...when do I tune..." And I know you could easily set up one to three good sounds to use for a whole show with a modeler, but that's not what most people are going to want to do, they're gonna go for the perfect tone for each song because they have the option. Not only that, if you do go for that never building up your own signature tone. Again, these are just my thoughts though, everyone works differently.
I'm sorry this post wasn't about techno.

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Funkybot wrote:Plus do you want to be the only guy on stage with no amp, or even worse, be in a band with no amps?
Sure why not, because a wall of Marshalls looks rock and roll? The only problem I can see that would be a factor wouldn't be appearance, but a lack of stage volume causing an unnatural sound. However I remember when the Rockman first came out there was this local band called "V" that only used Rockman's and you can use monitors for stage volume. Gary Moore during his metal years used 4 stacks (marshalls). He use to have the top cabs powered by his heads and the lower cabs each was a seperate monitor, each one had it's own volume pedal so he could adjust it while playing.
Plus it's just easier to accomodate the sound guys who are more ept to deal with mic'ing an amp, then running a long line out to their mixer.
I have done sound for many bands, I'll take the line over the mic, but I have never heard of someone running a long cable to a mixer...that's what snakes are for. Besides like with my rig, I can just leave the rack home, take the power amp, POD/GT2 and my 4x12...looks and sounds like an amp too me...:shrug:
So, for these and a few other reasons, yeah, I think if you're "serious" about guitar, you should probably own both.
This is no offense to you, but I am still very uncomfortable with the term serious...would a serious guitar player play an old accoustic with a big hole in it (and not the sound hole)...would a serious guitar player tour with a guitar that was made of parts, with the pick-up barely hanging on and wires twisted together? If those guitarists aren't serious guitarists then Willie and EVH might not agree. A question for you, how often does a serious guitarist change their strings?
Aside from lugging a big amp, or even a heavy combo (my Twin is over two thirds my body weight) the conveniences of setting up an amp and saying this is my clean sound, I'll use my Rat for heavy distorted sounds, then channel B for a crunchier sound, is easier to me than having to think to myself "ok, preset 1B is the Marshall tone I need on song one, damn...the singer just changed the setlist on the fly, now I need to get to preset 2C for this song to get that vox clean tone...when do I tune..." And I know you could easily set up one to three good sounds to use for a whole show with a modeler, but that's not what most people are going to want to do, they're gonna go for the perfect tone for each song because they have the option. Not only that, if you do go for that never building up your own signature tone. Again, these are just my thoughts though, everyone works differently.
First you know I have a monster amp rig, in fact it caused me to have to have hernia surgery a few years ago, and that was just putting my power amp on top of my 4x12. Tech 21 makes this cool device called the midi mouse that lets you quickly scroll through presets. But even more the floorboards work well. As for tuning, sorry but if we're gonna assume there is such a thing as a "serious" guitar player, I would think being able to tune on the fly would be an essential qualifyer. As for remembering what settings are what..huh? (please allow a little sarcasm here) a few centuries ago they invented these things called pens and papers. However if the singer suddenly changes the set list on the fly he may have more then just the guitarist to worry about...a soundman may not be too happy as well as the rest of the band, especially the keyboardist. If you're a GB band (general business) and you do requests, then you already pointed out that many tones are useful.

But my point wasn't to the live musician, but about the method you suggested for mic-ing...no offense but I have said that, many others have said it...but how many of has used it? It's more like one of those things we've read and makes us look good by saying it..and like I say we all have said it...but outside od good studios I bet few have done with good success...or atleast I doubt those who did use it found it made the difference between a good track and a poor one. In fact it's kind of a geniric, cliche response.

Like I say I don't like the term serious guitar player, who is to judge? IMO a serious guitar player doesn't need a lot of gear but more concerned with his guitar and playing. Then he'll use an amp that does the best job presenting the sound to the audience, despite size, shape, brand, appearance.

What does a serious guitar player use for guitars? Can a serious guitar player go out with a Hondo? I think so, Jimmy page played with a guitar made out of masonite (Dan Electro) Did you ever hear of Morphine (the band) the bass player/singer/heart of the band has since passed, but he had two strings on his bass and used a slide on bass...was he serious?

I'm not trying to pick on you, but there are young people here who might think they are a serious guitar player, read this and be discouraged. Being a serious guitar player isn't in your gear, it's in you. I have gone to jam nights at clubs with just my POD or GT2 and no one ever panned me. At Mars we had jam parties at a friends house, my Sansamp was more popular then anything else. In fact people stopped bringing their amps cause I had my Sansamp and it was plugged into his little PA.

I'm sorry "serious" just sounds so pretentious that's all...:D
Last edited by Hink on Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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BTW did you know that TECH21 makes an amp just for stuff like PODs...it's just a powered speaker
http://www.tech21nyc.com/power_engine_intro.html
http://www.tech21nyc.com/pe60.html

;)
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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I think you're just misreading what I mean by serious. I really just mean that you use it a lot. The conversation is about amp tones, and I know a lot of people round here don't even really play guitar but may own one, or may be interested in good amp sounds for mic'ing up other things. If you play guitar out in a band or whatnot, you're by default a serious guitar player IMO. But I'm not trying to be elitist about it all, hell I'm not a fan of the Van Halen's or Stevie Ray Vaughn's of the world, nor do I think one's technical abilities alone qualify them as a great guitar player. I'm just saying, personally I like having an amp around, along with my modelers and each has their own different benefits. And if you could afford to have both an amp and modeler than you absolutely should, just to get the best of both worlds.
I'm sorry this post wasn't about techno.

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Funkybot wrote:I think you're just misreading what I mean by serious. I really just mean that you use it a lot. The conversation is about amp tones, and I know a lot of people round here don't even really play guitar but may own one, or may be interested in good amp sounds for mic'ing up other things. If you play guitar out in a band or whatnot, you're by default a serious guitar player IMO. But I'm not trying to be elitist about it all, hell I'm not a fan of the Van Halen's or Stevie Ray Vaughn's of the world, nor do I think one's technical abilities alone qualify them as a great guitar player. I'm just saying, personally I like having an amp around, along with my modelers and each has their own different benefits. And if you could afford to have both an amp and modeler than you absolutely should, just to get the best of both worlds.

so you agree the power engine then too is a good option?...it's just an amp and speaker. Remember I have both a modeler and an amp (1/2 stack/rack rig) as well, quite frankly I hardly use my amp these days...but it just wouldn't be right without it....besides when I do want to crank that beast up at 4ohms it's loud...:hihi:
If you play guitar out in a band or whatnot, you're by default a serious guitar player IMO.
I must be what not :hihi: I haven't played out (besides jam nights) in years..likely I never will again :shrug:
Last edited by Hink on Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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BTW Hink, the members of the Line 6 forums have been raving about a similar product to that Tech21 cab called the Atomic Amp which works with a bunch of different modelers. From what everyone who's heard or bought one and posted there has been saying these things sound great.

Check it out at www.atomicamps.com
Last edited by Funkybot on Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm sorry this post wasn't about techno.

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I've got no problem with the GT2's or similar options. I've heard some amazing things out of them.
I'm sorry this post wasn't about techno.

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Funkybot wrote:BTW Hink, the members of the Line 6 forums have been raving about a similar product to that Tech21 cab called the Atomic Amp which works with a bunch of different modelers. From what everyone who's heard or bought one and posted there has been saying these things sound great.

Check it out at www.atomicamps.com
Yeah I saw that advertised before...;)
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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Funkybot wrote:I've got no problem with the GT2's or similar options. I've heard some amazing things out of them.
this is old but people seem to love it, "Sleeping Giant"

http://www.funender.com/music/play.php? ... =song_hifi

Hardtail Strat
Roland XP-10 Bass sound using an arpegio on it
Alesis SR-16 drums machine
Akai DPS12 recorder
GT2

I did it on 5 tracks...

if I bought a new amp it would be a tradmark 120 (Tech 21) basically three GT2's in a stereo 2x12 combo with a stereo loop...;)
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.

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