What techniques do you use to play guitar parts from the keyboard? I just listened to the SonikSynth acoustic guitar demo, and it's really amazing. How was that played?
--Mark
Playing sampled guitars
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- KVRAF
- 4692 posts since 28 Jan, 2003 from In these very interwebs
The way I see it, there are two factors: voicing and timing.
Voicing:
A guitar typically has six strings, E2, A2, D3, G3, B3, E4 (from lowest to highest, assuming middle C3). Each string can play its note, or any note higher (up to almost two octaves above). For example, the lowest string can play from its lowest E (E2 below middle C3) up to about D4.
Typically, a chord will use all six strings, and all strings will be similar distance (in pitch) from their "base" pitch.
If you're feeling lazy, a simple rule of thumb is this:
1) Chords usually have six notes spread over two octaves.
2) The lower three notes are usually about half and octave apart.
3) The upper three notes usually form a triad (a three-note chord covering less than an octave).
Timing:
Guitarists usually play chords by strumming - spreading the notes so that some notes are sounded slightly later than others. Pianists know this as a "rolled" or "broken" chord. Guitar strums usually alternate up/down with the beat.
Of course, that's a very simple approach - most professional guitarists will use more complex technique than what I've described. Emulating that technique on a keyboard becomes more and more complex of course.
-Kim.
Voicing:
A guitar typically has six strings, E2, A2, D3, G3, B3, E4 (from lowest to highest, assuming middle C3). Each string can play its note, or any note higher (up to almost two octaves above). For example, the lowest string can play from its lowest E (E2 below middle C3) up to about D4.
Typically, a chord will use all six strings, and all strings will be similar distance (in pitch) from their "base" pitch.
If you're feeling lazy, a simple rule of thumb is this:
1) Chords usually have six notes spread over two octaves.
2) The lower three notes are usually about half and octave apart.
3) The upper three notes usually form a triad (a three-note chord covering less than an octave).
Timing:
Guitarists usually play chords by strumming - spreading the notes so that some notes are sounded slightly later than others. Pianists know this as a "rolled" or "broken" chord. Guitar strums usually alternate up/down with the beat.
Of course, that's a very simple approach - most professional guitarists will use more complex technique than what I've described. Emulating that technique on a keyboard becomes more and more complex of course.
-Kim.
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- KVRian
- 830 posts since 9 Aug, 2004 from Berlin
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'm actually working on a guitar oriented pattern sequencer.
draft screenshot
you can see the main features on screenshot:
- a massive chord library, where you can also enter your own chords.
- a strum library. you can add up to 4 strokes per string, and place them anywhere, whith any velocity.
- a pattern sequencer, where you choose chord, strum, strum rate, etc...
fast strum rate makes... a fast strum
slow strum rate makes an arpeggio (if you placed the strokes taking care of the background grid).
strokes won't snap the grid, so it can't be other than "humanised"
you can put slides on sequencer too. a slide goes from actual note to a destination note. you can set the number of steps it takes to go there, number of steps it takes to come back, (if you want it to come back...), and choose wether the slide is linear or fretted.
(a fast slide (1/2 step) can give a hammer on too.
there will be also a midi cc triggering, so that you can adapt it to your sampler or synth. that way, if your synth has a mute button, you can use that cc to trigger it.
the plug has no sound, it outputs midi.
each string will have it's channel, so you can open 6 guitar sampler instances, and have a chord playing, and a slide on only one string.
draft screenshot
you can see the main features on screenshot:
- a massive chord library, where you can also enter your own chords.
- a strum library. you can add up to 4 strokes per string, and place them anywhere, whith any velocity.
- a pattern sequencer, where you choose chord, strum, strum rate, etc...
fast strum rate makes... a fast strum
slow strum rate makes an arpeggio (if you placed the strokes taking care of the background grid).
strokes won't snap the grid, so it can't be other than "humanised"
you can put slides on sequencer too. a slide goes from actual note to a destination note. you can set the number of steps it takes to go there, number of steps it takes to come back, (if you want it to come back...), and choose wether the slide is linear or fretted.
(a fast slide (1/2 step) can give a hammer on too.
there will be also a midi cc triggering, so that you can adapt it to your sampler or synth. that way, if your synth has a mute button, you can use that cc to trigger it.
the plug has no sound, it outputs midi.
each string will have it's channel, so you can open 6 guitar sampler instances, and have a chord playing, and a slide on only one string.
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- KVRAF
- 4143 posts since 7 Sep, 2001 from Melbourne, Australia
Mokafix - have been following this in another thread. Can't wait to use it myself. I always wanted Rythm & Chords but never had a host that was MFX compatible so I'm really looking forward to it.
Caleb
Caleb
Happiness is the hidden behind the obvious.
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- Sonic Reality Head Chef
- 8566 posts since 11 Mar, 2002 from Florida
To really sound like a guitar you should do guitar voicings and think about what notes a guitar player would be able to play across the six (usually) strings. But, that's a lot of work and thinking so you can simulate it by spreading your voicings out a bit and also skewing the notes you play so you don't play at the same time. That's the biggest problem keyboard players have and that can make acoustic guitar samples sound like a harpsichord just by the way you play it! So, for the demo I mostly just skewed the notes a little. Also, using a lot of 4th and 5th intervals helps too because this a common sound you hear from guitars.mle wrote:What techniques do you use to play guitar parts from the keyboard? I just listened to the SonikSynth acoustic guitar demo, and it's really amazing. How was that played?
--Mark
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- KVRian
- 1157 posts since 1 Apr, 2003 from Good old Germany
Picking and (very) slow strums can be done nicely with single samples. But even the best programming and playing can't bring forth really good strumming, IMHO. To my taste, not even the dedicated guitar software Real Guitar does the strums real enough. If real sounding stumming is important, one either needs a strum sample library or a real guitar player.
But picking patters can sound very nice.
As to the chord voicing. You could buy a little book with guitar chord lists and then write up what notes that would be. Such a book would usually contain 3 to 4 different voicing for evey single chord, covering different positions on the neck.
tele
But picking patters can sound very nice.
As to the chord voicing. You could buy a little book with guitar chord lists and then write up what notes that would be. Such a book would usually contain 3 to 4 different voicing for evey single chord, covering different positions on the neck.
tele
Listen to me at soundcklick:
www.soundclick.com/wewritesongs
www.soundclick.com/wewritesongs
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- KVRian
- 1238 posts since 10 May, 2002 from Sweden
I think it's possible to make decent fast strums using single note multisamples but it helps if you have a dedicated midi controller for the job. Thisis a short snippet I just did with SampleTank 2 (the Acoustic 12 String patch from the Guitar Collection).telebunke wrote:Picking and (very) slow strums can be done nicely with single samples. But even the best programming and playing can't bring forth really good strumming, IMHO. To my taste, not even the dedicated guitar software Real Guitar does the strums real enough. If real sounding stumming is important, one either needs a strum sample library or a real guitar player.
Quick and dirty, just the output of ST 2 as is. I just played some chords on the keyboard and the strumming was done with a Digitar. I'm sure you can get pretty much the same result with a Yamaha EZ-AG but then you'd have to know the guitar chords. What's nice about the Digitar is that it automatically translates 3- or 4-note keyboard chords to the corresponding guitar voicing. I also uploaded the midi file if anyone's interested.
/Yoss
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- KVRian
- 1157 posts since 1 Apr, 2003 from Good old Germany
It's veeery nice for triggering single samples, but I'm sorry to say - it is miles away from real stumming. Strumming is not the addion of single picks, because the strings have a different sound when strummeda and picked. Even the specialist product Real Guitar doesn't really cut it. IMHO you'd need strum samples to get decent strumming, although that limits you to the chords that you have samples for.Yossarian wrote: I think it's possible to make decent fast strums using single note multisamples but it helps if you have a dedicated midi controller for the job.
/Yoss
tele
Listen to me at soundcklick:
www.soundclick.com/wewritesongs
www.soundclick.com/wewritesongs
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- KVRian
- 1238 posts since 10 May, 2002 from Sweden
I guess it's a question of what you're aiming for. If you absolutely need an exact, one-to-one emulation then samples are never going to cut it. Sampled strums won't either because they tend to get a bit static. On the other hand, if you just need something in the mix to give the "impression of a guitar" it could work just fine.
With samples, layering will often give much better results. I don't mean adding another sampled guitar, triggered by the same midi file but re-recording the midi part and have it trigger another guitar. There are other things you can do, like run the sampled guitar through an envelope shaper (like Transient Designer or Dominion) to take the edge off the attacks.
Another approach I've been considering is to use a real guitar and make my own strum samples. I can't play guitar to save my life but I can always learn the fingering for a particular chord, record some strumming with it and string these strummed samples together in the sequencer. This would hopefully be less static than sampled strums off a sample cd as these will be customized for a particular song and you would have more variation. Who knows, I might even learn to play guitar in the process.
/Yoss
With samples, layering will often give much better results. I don't mean adding another sampled guitar, triggered by the same midi file but re-recording the midi part and have it trigger another guitar. There are other things you can do, like run the sampled guitar through an envelope shaper (like Transient Designer or Dominion) to take the edge off the attacks.
Another approach I've been considering is to use a real guitar and make my own strum samples. I can't play guitar to save my life but I can always learn the fingering for a particular chord, record some strumming with it and string these strummed samples together in the sequencer. This would hopefully be less static than sampled strums off a sample cd as these will be customized for a particular song and you would have more variation. Who knows, I might even learn to play guitar in the process.
/Yoss