can't control bass with freeware (or can I?)

[_starcraft_]

I'm sure I'm not following this - at first I wasn't sure if it was a problem in a sound source or a rendered mix. kritikon correctly pointed out what to do in the case of a sound source, but you're saying there is a problem in the sound source but you like the sound but you are going to compress it to make it sound good...haha just shoot me - as long as you like it!

huh? u didn't undesrtand anything sir. not that my explanations where very clear.
i just wanted 2 notes pressed on a synth to sound "sonically" the same. (same volume and dsame frequency content)
at first i thought a compressor would take care of this.
i allrewady knew how to do it the cheap way ( applying eq to the 2nd note to make it the same as the first one etc)but was lookin for a plugin that would dynamically uniform the differences in bass content during playback.
that's when the multiband compression suggestion came in ....and thats' waht i'm lookin into right now and it seems to be what i was after.

[_starcraft_]

its a bass with an Lp filter with low cut off setting and high resonance 8half wayt through anyway).

Maybe we're close to a solution here: does your synth provide either of the following (basically equivalent) things:

1. A Key Follow (or Key Track or similar) parameter on the LPF that can be set to 100%.

2. A mod matrix where Key Follow (or Key Track or Note Number or similar) can be routed 1:1 to the LPF cutoff?

If this setting is possible, but is not currently set on your patch, then set it. Then play the "good" note (C, for instance), and tweak the LPF cutoff until it sounds exactly like before. Now the key tracking should take care of making other notes sound as clear and focused as the one you've just tweaked.

(If 100% key tracking is already set for your patch, then try adjusting it up or down slightly, which is basically like eq'ing the patch from the inside.)

thx interesting read.
subduer does not have keytracking unfortunately .
but i will request it to the developer

[_starcraft_]

This is a compressor that works by lowering the volume of selected frquencies when they pass a user set threshold.

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=72521

to sum it up
this is what i was after.


thx all for your help

[P.T.]

Glad you worked it out.

That device has helped me a few times with unruley sounds.

[PaulSC]

I'm a pretty entry level programmer, but I'm not sure I'm understanding PaulSC completely, though. Why would keyfollow automatically clear the problem up? I thought it just wired its destination parameter to the high and low range of the keyboard, thus lowering the cutoff for higher notes and raising it for lower notes?

Filter keytracking typically does the opposite of that (except if you have the option of setting a negative tracking amount). Here's why it should work:

First, let's suppose key tracking is OFF.

When _starcraft_ plays his "good" bass note, the LPF acts appropriately. For instance, let's say it gives a good bright attack, closing down towards a solid fundamental during a decay stage, sustaining in that state, and releasing cleanly. The resonance gives a characteristic "twang" to the sound, but it doesn't interact excessively with prominent overtones in the basic oscillator wave.

Now, when _starcraft_ plays his "bad" bass note, there's no keytracking on the LPF, so it behaves exactly as before. But the oscillator is now putting out a different bunch of frequencies -- lower ones, let's say. In this case, a larger number of partials pass through the filter on the attack, so it's brighter -- maybe too bright. And when the filter closes down to its sustain level, perhaps the resonant band around the cutoff is now catching one or more prominent overtones in the basic oscillator wave, so it sounds boomy instead of clean. In short, the oscillator is key tracking (which we often take for granted), but the filter isn't, so the osc/filter interaction will be different for each note you play. These differences aren't always bad, but they can be.

If instead key tracking is 100% ON (which unfortunately appears not be an option for _starcraft_)*, then once you've tweaked the filter cutoff so the "good" note sounds as it did before, then the osc/filter interaction will be the same for each note you play. If one note is "good," then they all should be. (There are subtler things to take into account, such as the fact that human hearing isn't "flat", but that's another story.)

*If you're reading this, _starcraft_, I'm glad you found another solution for your mix.

[_starcraft_]

I'm a pretty entry level programmer, but I'm not sure I'm understanding PaulSC completely, though. Why would keyfollow automatically clear the problem up? I thought it just wired its destination parameter to the high and low range of the keyboard, thus lowering the cutoff for higher notes and raising it for lower notes?

Filter keytracking typically does the opposite of that (except if you have the option of setting a negative tracking amount). Here's why it should work:

First, let's suppose key tracking is OFF.

When _starcraft_ plays his "good" bass note, the LPF acts appropriately. For instance, let's say it gives a good bright attack, closing down towards a solid fundamental during a decay stage, sustaining in that state, and releasing cleanly. The resonance gives a characteristic "twang" to the sound, but it doesn't interact excessively with prominent overtones in the basic oscillator wave.

Now, when _starcraft_ plays his "bad" bass note, there's no keytracking on the LPF, so it behaves exactly as before. But the oscillator is now putting out a different bunch of frequencies -- lower ones, let's say. In this case, a larger number of partials pass through the filter on the attack, so it's brighter -- maybe too bright. And when the filter closes down to its sustain level, perhaps the resonant band around the cutoff is now catching one or more prominent overtones in the basic oscillator wave, so it sounds boomy instead of clean. In short, the oscillator is key tracking (which we often take for granted), but the filter isn't, so the osc/filter interaction will be different for each note you play. These differences aren't always bad, but they can be.

If instead key tracking is 100% ON (which unfortunately appears not be an option for _starcraft_)*, then once you've tweaked the filter cutoff so the "good" note sounds as it did before, then the osc/filter interaction will be the same for each note you play. If one note is "good," then they all should be. (There are subtler things to take into account, such as the fact that human hearing isn't "flat", but that's another story.)

*If you're reading this, _starcraft_, I'm glad you found another solution for your mix.

i just copied and pasted everything u wrote for future reference.(although i got the picture)
so next time I can solve the problem from its roots(if keytrack is present of course).
i thought i had good experience with subtractive synths.....but keytracking always escaped me.it was the one knob which I always thought "what the fuk is this for".
thx man

[Frippertronix]

I'm a pretty entry level programmer, but I'm not sure I'm understanding PaulSC completely, though. Why would keyfollow automatically clear the problem up? I thought it just wired its destination parameter to the high and low range of the keyboard, thus lowering the cutoff for higher notes and raising it for lower notes?

Filter keytracking typically does the opposite of that (except if you have the option of setting a negative tracking amount). Here's why it should work:

First, let's suppose key tracking is OFF.

When _starcraft_ plays his "good" bass note, the LPF acts appropriately. For instance, let's say it gives a good bright attack, closing down towards a solid fundamental during a decay stage, sustaining in that state, and releasing cleanly. The resonance gives a characteristic "twang" to the sound, but it doesn't interact excessively with prominent overtones in the basic oscillator wave.

Now, when _starcraft_ plays his "bad" bass note, there's no keytracking on the LPF, so it behaves exactly as before. But the oscillator is now putting out a different bunch of frequencies -- lower ones, let's say. In this case, a larger number of partials pass through the filter on the attack, so it's brighter -- maybe too bright. And when the filter closes down to its sustain level, perhaps the resonant band around the cutoff is now catching one or more prominent overtones in the basic oscillator wave, so it sounds boomy instead of clean. In short, the oscillator is key tracking (which we often take for granted), but the filter isn't, so the osc/filter interaction will be different for each note you play. These differences aren't always bad, but they can be.

If instead key tracking is 100% ON (which unfortunately appears not be an option for _starcraft_)*, then once you've tweaked the filter cutoff so the "good" note sounds as it did before, then the osc/filter interaction will be the same for each note you play. If one note is "good," then they all should be. (There are subtler things to take into account, such as the fact that human hearing isn't "flat", but that's another story.)

*If you're reading this, _starcraft_, I'm glad you found another solution for your mix.

So, can you sum up why keytracking was introduced into synths? My (probably mis-) understanding was that it was just to filter harsher upper harmonics out of high notes but leave them on the lower notes, but it sounds like the purpose is different than that.

[PaulSC]

Well, I think there's more than one reason why. For instance, if you have a self-oscillating filter and you want to play a melody with it, then you need to key tracking to get different pitches across the keyboard.

The action you've just described is what a filter will do with NO keytracking. And sometimes that's a good result. But other times it creates problems. In the most drastic case, a filter setting that thins out a low sawtooth wave to just its lowest few harmonics would totally SILENCE the same wave played much higher.

As a rule -- with plenty of exceptions -- low-resonance filter settings often work well without keytracking, while high-resonance filter settings can benefit more from keytracking.

Ideally, you don't just want an on/off keytrack switch (although that's what some hardware, like the Prophet 5, gives you), but an adjustable knob/slider so you can find a keytracking setting that maximizes the benefits and minimizes the costs for each patch.

[Frippertronix]

So what if you want even more of an effect of having less highs in the treble and more highs in the bass, is this a thing that can be commonly achieved with keytracking? Just by setting it to "negative" and adjusting the cutoff to taste?

[_starcraft_]

Asynth and Xhip offer keytracking.
u guys reccomend any other synth?
I'll experiment with it tomorrow.

edit:
allready playin with it...
allready a few memorable leads which make extensive use of keytrack come to mind....tarantula by faithless is one.
it is a vital feature ....

[kylen]

I'm sure I'm not following this - at first I wasn't sure if it was a problem in a sound source or a rendered mix. kritikon correctly pointed out what to do in the case of a sound source, but you're saying there is a problem in the sound source but you like the sound but you are going to compress it to make it sound good...haha just shoot me - as long as you like it!

huh? u didn't undesrtand anything sir. not that my explanations where very clear.
i just wanted 2 notes pressed on a synth to sound "sonically" the same. (same volume and dsame frequency content)
at first i thought a compressor would take care of this.
i allrewady knew how to do it the cheap way ( applying eq to the 2nd note to make it the same as the first one etc)but was lookin for a plugin that would dynamically uniform the differences in bass content during playback.
that's when the multiband compression suggestion came in ....and thats' waht i'm lookin into right now and it seems to be what i was after.

Sorry _starcraft_ this is a really fine thread full of info - I was kinda funnin with ya since I didn't have the answer and obviously didn't get it - very cool tips from all around though! I repair a lot of recordings but if the source is still available that is absolutely the best spot to clear up the sound. But maybe you'll dig the coloring that the MB compressor will add - long as it sounds great!

[metamorphosis]

There's a dynamic eq (freeware of course) in the KVR vst archive - just look through all eqs, you'll fin dit-
Cheerz,
M@

[metamorphosis]

Also you could use an audio editor to find the average frequency of the dominant sound and then notch-filter the eq to reduce it-

[PaulSC]

So what if you want even more of an effect of having less highs in the treble and more highs in the bass, is this a thing that can be commonly achieved with keytracking? Just by setting it to "negative" and adjusting the cutoff to taste?

(Late reply: Yes, if you have negative keytracking, then as you play higher keys the cutoff frequency goes DOWN. I think it's pretty unusual to have negative keytracking available on a dedicated knob in the filter panel; but plenty of synths with mod matrices make this possible.)