Why are sampled pianos so flat?

[Kalamata Kid]

Frippertronix, MauroR and All,

Have you checked out the artvista virtual piano?
I would like to hear your comments.
demo:
http://artvista.net/VGP%20Demos/VGP_Imp ... n_Demo.mp3

I tried the Sonic Implants and was rather disappointed. I immediately then
listened to the artvisa (all the way through) and preferred it. This is a personal preference kind of thing I believe.

MauroR suggstet to wait for NI Akoustik Piano. The NI products are always
so good I just may wait. Is there anywhere to hear a demo?

I am more familiar with how pianos should sound or should I say
I know how I want my piano to sound and this is why for now I
am concentrating on sampled pianos and not other instruments.

Lucky for me with the feed back I now have a few more choices and
techniques to try.

[metamorphosis]

I've just sampled my own piano with 5 channels-
it sounds anything but flat.
m@

[flugel45]

Frippertronix, MauroR and All,

Have you checked out the artvista virtual piano?
I would like to hear your comments.
demo:
http://artvista.net/VGP%20Demos/VGP_Imp ... n_Demo.mp3

I tried the Sonic Implants and was rather disappointed. I immediately then
listened to the artvisa (all the way through) and preferred it. This is a personal preference kind of thing I believe.

...

Agree on all counts. This is a very subjective thing.

I heard the Art Vista VGP demo last week, and found it beautiful (the first piano I've heard that sounds like I think a Steinway grand should sound).

My order shipped yesterday, so hopefully I will be playing with it by the weekend.

JD

[shanecgriffo]

well i've been after a piano for a while , i'm a guitarist but i do love to tickle those old ivories ..err i mean plastics every now and then. so i invested in the artvista grand about a week or so ago. Im really enjoying playing with it and have already used it in a couple of recording projects.its nice having the different preset emulations ,so i'm sure you could get it to sound good in just about most situations. there are both wet (includes the room reverb ) and dry samples to load. i havent tried alot of other pianos but i was using a couple of free pmi ones that came on the cover disk of C.M or music tech.-cant remember.. they were o.k. but the artvista is much more dynamic. For some reason i havent been able to load it in kontakt tho, and you should be able to.

[AKJ]

from the demo files on their site I must say that I am not particularly impressed with the artvista grand. I think most people just like it's room sound (which imo actually does not sound like a recording of a concert type room but rather like in a private space so maybe people get the feeling: oh, it's sounds like when I am playing the piano). I suggest checking your own libraries with some good IRs from natural rooms/halls. maybe, that will do the trick. personally, comparing the files at purgatory creek I still find the bösendorfer 275 the most convincing (and versatile) grand out there. however, I did not have the chance to make a live playing test with the newer libs (like ivory or the new NI piano etc. - which have the disadvantage that one cannot tweak them). But then: sometimes I end up to use the 30 megs or so jazz piano of soundscan vol 17 (acoustic keyboards) and leave aside all the big libs that I have (bösendorfer 275, trachman steinway C8, gigapiano). this small piano actually does sit very well in a mix, and if I use it for pop all these no looping, sampling all keys, relaese layer features do not count much...

akj

[Kalamata Kid]

Hello AKJ,

Wher can I find a audio demo of the
Bosendorfer 275?

[AKJ]

here a link to soundonline:

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/det ... sku=EW-104

but strange, I got mine for 100 USD there.

checka also this site:

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/documents/28_27.html

or in an overview over all the different piano libs (using the same midi file):

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/documents/27.html

best, akj

[Kalamata Kid]

AKJ and Metamorphosis,

Ok the EASTWEST's BOSENDORFER 275
sounded fairly good to me but the artvista VGP
has a better demo as it slow music and thus can
hear the full note. Now on the another hand if I could
compare it next to the other pianos at Purgatory Creek
playing the same fast tune it may be a different story.

When I play my The Grand slow with FX it sounds
sterile compared to the artvista VGP demo with any FX.

BTW Metamorphosis you said “I've just sampled my
own piano with 5 channels- it sounds anything but flat.
Not sure what point you are trying to make. Can
we hear a few notes?

[AKJ]

hi kalamata Kid,

just send me a midi file I will will make a mp3 for you (as slow as you want

akj

[funkynuts]

Maybe your sampled piano will sound great when played through a top notch room emulation and a great monitoring setup
Maybe the acoustic piano you loved in the shop will sound poor if mic,ed with a set of 451,s and played dry through a set of mid range monitors.
Maybe an "artificial" version of something will always appear substandard when gauged against the real thing.
But as compromises go most of the top piano libraries can be made to sound good and a lot more inspiring if a good quality reverb is employed set to give you the "players perspective" you seem to enjoy.
Not to mention careful use of eq and dynamics.
Don,t forget these libraries are designed to be "dry" and "flat" in order to allow you to fine tune the tone to your own personal satisfaction.

My 2 cents

Funk

[funkynuts]

Also ,is your contoller keyboard up to the task?
Do your pedals respond in the same manner as a piano you enjoy playing?
This would affect the sampled piano,s response to your performance in addition to your own enjoyment of same.
There are many psychological and physiological factors at work here which can colour your judgement somewhat.

[AKJ]

this is the EW Bösendorfer with quite some room sound (added with Pristine Space and a nice IR):

www.power-xs.net/download/EWBoesendorfer275.mp3

akj

[Kalamata Kid]

Hello All,

I certainly appreciate all the effort to try to help me.
I have learned a few things and plan to try
a few of the suggestions.

My original contention is this:
I am comparing the striking one single note at one velocity
on the "Traumerei." by Schumann from a audio CD VS.
a single note one velocity from an ambient sampled piano
and a dry with fx. I have not found one sampled piano to sound
as good.

There is the sweetness and beauty that I hear in recorded music
that is absent from most sampled pianos. The note oscillates as
it decays in unpredictable ways. I can get excited
of striking a single note on a real piano or hearing the first note
of the “Traumerei” and other music. Single note single velocity.

AKJ, you did a good job on the demo. It is impressive. I will spend
more time trying to eq and fx the Grand.

If you can send 3 to 5 notes to decay. That will let me compare to
the artvista VGP demo.

So as it stands now.
1. Wait for the NI Akoustik Piano demo
2. Consider Piano Sympathetic Resonance at http://music.mezo.com/
3. Experiment with adding EQ and reverb to The Grand
4. Wait for artvista VGP to be included in the Purgatory Creek shoot out.
5 Spend more time searching the audio demos.

Did I cover everything?

I have checked out my audio card and Speakers and the problem is
not there.

[metamorphosis]

BTW Metamorphosis you said “I've just sampled my
own piano with 5 channels- it sounds anything but flat.
Not sure what point you are trying to make. Can
we hear a few notes?

Not sure what point I'm trying to make either :)
Sorry, I'm unable to upload right at the moment- but would like to at some point (my recording machine is packed up, at the moment). I guess, if anything, my point would be that you need to record real piano to get a real piano result. There is no substitute, for all the reasons that other people have listed -
you loose so much nuance going to sampled stuff, basically. More to the point, if you record your own piano, you can pretty much get any sound you're looking for-
but otherwise you're gonna have to rely on the best that other people can give you- not necessarily a bad thing
Not meaning to look like a techno-bigot, I use samples too
No offence intended at all.
m@

[AKJ]

Hi Kalamata Kid,

it's good that you have a popular taste
if you were liking a certain piece of Schönberg, maybe, it would have been more difficult to find the right midi file in the net, but the "Träumerei" is so popular, within a minute I got a good one.
So now I can show you how it sounds with the EastWest Bösendorfer 275 taking the beginning of the "Träumerei" as an example. But since I think that for this kind of music a more "woody" and darker sound of a Steinway paino suits more, I have also made an example with the Trachtman Steinway C8 (which is, unfortunately, no longer available but has a very woody and "lyrical" character ideal for this piece). Here are the links:

www.power-xs.net/download/traeumerei-boesendorfer.mp3

and

www.power-xs.net/download/traeumerei-steinway.mp3

I did no processing except from adding a little room with Spristine Space Light and the same IR as before (a imuplse generated from the Musikvereinsaal-preset of Impulse Modeler). I just added a little less of it since it is generally preferable to me to have a less reverb. For me, it would be ready for publishing it as it is. (If no processing is needed then better leave it.) And if you still think that all sampled pianos are flat I cannot help it.

best, akj

ps: maybe you should consider getting another sample lib, since the grand is really awful for the kind of sound you are after. better go for a sampled steinway. (the grand is a kawai and imo it is way to bright and brassy and only good for pop)