The string legato on Philharmonik

[Caleb]

Now that a couple of us have this in our possession I thought I might start this as a separate topic.

Has anyone had success programming a line of beautiful legato string playing in Philharmonik yet?

How did they do it? Enquiring minds want to know.

I'm trying to work it out with the solo cello patch and I'm trying the following:

Play the line in just with the standard patch settings first of all.
Select Mono legato on the patch and set the glissando to roughly 10ms.
In the Tune section turn on STRETCH for Note and I put the Preserve Harmonics to about 80%.
I go into my cello part and work out which notes are to be played legato and I extend notes so that there is a slight overlap between each legato note.
The notes that I don't want to have legato I make sure there is no overlap between adjacent notes.

Things to be aware of....

Remember that if you are using the non-looped cello that there is no re-triggering when you move from note to note in legato. This can surprise you when the cello stops before you are ready for it to. However, there is something quite natural about this - like a flute player running out of breath or something. You can always use the looped cello in parts to avoid this if necessary.

So far - the results I've got have not been great - which is one of the reasons I started this thread. Would anyone like to contribute a strategy or indicate whether they got any success with mine?

Caleb

[nexussynth]

Getting a convincing legato line in especially a solo string instrument sample is the holy grail of midi orchestras.

I am not aware of anything that can pull this off with a good simulation except the VSL pro which has it's legato tool and the special legato phrases sampled. It is quite extensive and that's why you are not likely to see it in a library for less than a thousand dollars.

For me, it's not so big a deal. I am after an overall impression of orchestral realism but I also understand that it just isn't going to sound like a real orchestra. Legato is one of those things that only live instruments will get for you.

Some people are having success they claim with the "Synful" solo strings. I tried the demo and though it does some very realistic things I found it hard to use and the sound quality doesn't come anywhere near the beauty of this Miroslav library.

But.. you might try making your legato parts on two tracks with two instruments, where one 'fills in' between the notes which have fades between them. This works quite well for sections but will need more work for solo.

Basically, you want to disguise the attack of the next note but not create an overlap that would sound like two separate instruments playing together for an instant. Removing the attack of the next note is how GPO does it and I have programmed my Gold library to have this too. Squids mentioned some patches have sample start altered by velocity. Probably the same basic thing. You will have to experiment with any new library to find your own techniques. It's work but is rewarding.

I love the solo strings in this library! In fact this whole library is so musical. I don't remember my old Vitous samples sounding THIS good!

[Caleb]

Wow - an answer. Only happened when someone altered by topic title......Squids....?

Actually - come to think of it - the title might have sounded like I was saying something bad about Philharmonik so it probably was a good idea to change the title. Could have been misleading otherwise.

Thanks nexus - I don't know if velocity controlled sample start is what I'm looking for in Philharmonik though. That sounds more like a tool used for shortening attack for a faster bowing action rather than a legato.

Caleb

[nexussynth]

Wow - an answer. Only happened when someone altered by topic title......Squids....?

Actually - come to think of it - the title might have sounded like I was saying something bad about Philharmonik so it probably was a good idea to change the title. Could have been misleading otherwise.

Thanks nexus - I don't know if velocity controlled sample start is what I'm looking for in Philharmonik though. That sounds more like a tool used for shortening attack for a faster bowing action rather than a legato.

Caleb

Yes it is for changes in bowing. I have been going through the presets and legato is a little more difficult in the Miro, at least with solo strings.

The most successful technique I've found in lower priced libraries is where the attack can be removed by activating a controller like a footswitch or something before the next note is played which switches to the identical samples but where the attack has been advanced past where the initial bow sound (attack) begins. I've done this in Kontakt with my libraries and even years ago in my old EMU E4 and K2000.

Maybe we can see this in a future update of Philharmonik?

[Squids]

Wow - an answer. Only happened when someone altered by topic title......Squids....?

Caleb

That dreaded naughty Squids... hehe. Still pals with Caleb though!

[Caleb]

That's cool Squids - the existing title is more succinct anyway and not prone to misinterpretation.

Anyway - I put together a particularly crappy few bars of cello programming trying and not really succeeding in getting the legato the way I would like it.

I've left it in wav form at 4.5MB because I figure these days that's not too much to download and I don't want to deteriorate it any more with compression.

I kinda cringe when I listen to a couple of the runs in there actually - but feel free to comment. Maybe with some more refinement I can get closer.

I haven't programmed in swells or anything yet - this is just working with the legato.

Settings are:

Instrument - Cello1 (not looped)
Mono Legato selected with 5ms glissando
Stretch activated with preserve harmonics at 50%

Feel free to comment.

http://www.calebblake.com/audiofiles/ex.wav

Caleb

[telebunke]

I'd be interested to hear how it sounds when replacing the cello part with a viola.

tele

[Stratification]

Or drop the cello down an octave perhaps?

[Caleb]

Yep - cello sounds quite a bit better an octave down. Didn't know what I was thinking pitching it there.

I have uploaded a new mp3. It isn't too bad and quite workable in many way. However, I think there are some serious problems with 3 notes in particular. No prizes for guessing which ones as it will cause an instant headache to you.

I'm not sure why these particular notes sound so ghastly, but I think I'll try to work around it by using a second cello patch (same sample - different instance) with poly selected, create a separate midi file and program the offending notes with a careful note overlap.

Kind of counter-productive, but I guess I'd rather do it for 3 notes than for all of them.

http://www.calebblake.com/audiofiles/ex2.mp3

Caleb

[Caleb]

And here is an example replacing the offending notes according to my idea above.

This is obviously much better. However, it does show that Legato mode does have its uses. The notes I've replaced don't sound quite as good as the surrounding Legato mode notes.

http://www.calebblake.com/audiofiles/ex3.mp3

Caleb

[telebunke]

The lower cello sounds better, it's just the more typical range for the instrument. You might like to try doubling that with the viola playing one octave higher.

tele

[Rellik]

I personally LOVE the sound of a cello in its higher registers and it sounds really good in Philharmonik's solo cello, as well

I haven't been able to listen to the examples, and I don't have a chance to try it out right now, but as far as I know, it would be advisable to use multiple different articulations to achieve a realistic legato sound, rather than just a legato patch. You could alternate between legato, portato, and detache to achieve a very expressive sound, without losing the legato feel. A lot of the solo cello articulations have this really great BITE to them that I think would be excellent as filler in a legato section. I really can't wait to put Philharmonik to use - too bad that, when I do get back from this trip, school will start immediately should be much easier than last year, though - more time to create my masterpieces

[Caleb]

Hi Rellik. Thanks for the tip.
I'm actually not very good with understanding articulations, so it's something I have to work on.

Glad to be learning on Miro though.

The patch I've used isn't a legato patch, it's just the vanila Cello1 patch and I've used the engine's Mono Legato + STRETCH functionality.

I'm yet to even look at different articulations. From what I can see, the Solo Cello has the following listed:

Detache, Detache Dark, Detache Long (3 types), Detache Short (3 types), Full (whatever that means), Pizzicato, Staccato and Trem.

Although I don't see portato, there may be a way to achieve that I guess, but I don't know enough about what that actually means.

I will be working on my little piece as an exercise though to get the cello I love into my music. I'm getting happier with each iteration.

Then it might be an idea to actually look at the rest of Miro

Caleb

[telebunke]

Detache, Detache Dark, Detache Long (3 types), Detache Short (3 types), Full (whatever that means), Pizzicato, Staccato and Trem.
Caleb

wikipedia explains most of the articulations. If not, it's always in the web somewhere. Ask my friend Go-Ogle.


tele

[Caleb]

Actually I believe I have a book that will tell me, but I have to actually look it up etc....

I swear I spend no more than 10 mins on this a day.

Caleb