The most 'educational' of notation softwares ?

[disturb]

Hi folks,
I'm not sure this thread really suits this section, but anyway...

I've been making music for a couple of years now, and i only have some basic knowledge in terms of theory.
I'm really willing to improve my compositionnal skills, and i guess the only way to do that is to delve more into theory for sometime (and try to kinda forget about it afterwards...).

The thing is, a piano roll is the only thing i know, i can't read a music sheet, and i believe that could be a great help for studying other people's music etc.
I use sx, so i have access to a partition editor, but it's pretty raw, and it leaves me in front of the sheet kinda clueless.

What i'm looking for is a notation software (one that could host vst would be great, so i would'nt have to endure a midi piano on my poor compositions ) ; but one with an educational approach, something that can point out my mistakes, maybe suggest something to complete a chord progression, something that 'explains' things actually.

I am clueless right now but i believe such a thing must exist...?

Any thoughts?

cheers

[imekon]

Hi folks,
What i'm looking for is a notation software (one that could host vst would be great, so i would'nt have to endure a midi piano on my poor compositions ) ; but one with an educational approach, something that can point out my mistakes, maybe suggest something to complete a chord progression, something that 'explains' things actually.

I am clueless right now but i believe such a thing must exist...?

From what I've seen of most hosts, such a thing doesn't exist. I could be wrong...

Most hosts assume you know what you're doing and don't try to educate in the way you're expecting.

At the other extreme, there are aides to learning music, but I'm not sure how good they are - anyone recommend one?

I'm in the middle of such a search myself. So far I've found one book that is helpful - the idiot's guide to music theory. Also one website: http://chordmaps.com.

What seems to be missing out there are books on music theory and piano roll editing!

(PS. What's a partition editor?)

[james0tucson]

I'm still using a version of Cakewalk Score Writer that was bundled with some sound card in 1999. It's pretty good, it does one thing well. I have not stumbled across anything I like better, but then, Sibelius and Finale don't exactly drop in my lap...

[disturb]

i'll check out the book imekon thx...

And by 'partition' i meant SCORE, sorry for that, english isn't my native language, and i thought it was the same word

[disturb]

hi james,
i know finale and sibelius are the leading apps on the market, but since they are aimed at pros mostly, i figured they wouldn't be of much help educationally wise... Am i wrong ?

[warp x]

improving your compositional skills is IMHO best NOT done in front of the computer.........
if you want to get better at composing, get yourself a basic music-theory book, and also, take some music that you like and try to analyse it, so you learn what it is that you like about it.

as for notation software, I would always suggest Sibelius to people who are not familiar with notation. it's xpensive, but worth it IMO.
if you are on a mac, check out noteability pro, that seems to be quite good as well.

my €00.02

[disturb]

ok warp x , i agree whole heartedly with your comments, but internet is a great ressource for this matter (tutorials, free music sheets, free midi files etc) so the computer will probably take a big part in the learning process (plus i can't play the keyboard anywhere else but in my pc)...
I'll checkout sibelius too.

Also i wanted to say that chordmaps.com is one of the most approachable website on theory i've came across, really clear, but it still gets pretty deep (at least for me). Thanks for the link imekon

[aMUSEd]

Compass looks rather nice:

http://www.sibelius.com/products/compass/

[nuffink]

If I may be allowed to blow my own trumpet...

http://www.chordspace.com/app/Chordspace.zip

[imekon]

Compass looks rather nice:

http://www.sibelius.com/products/compass/

Certainly looks interesting from the flash movie.

[the_nihilist]

1) go to music store with books
2) buy a music theory textbook for like $10
3) spend awhile working your way through it

I recommend a book like this:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

[Distorted_Mastermind]

for playing and composing chords are the place to start. reading music is cool, but a trained ear is just as good and in most cases better.
i have to aggree with warp on this one...it's best to do this away from the computer....what is that they say practice makes perfect. it won't make you perfect or anyone else, but it sure helps.
go with piano lessons if you can. they are usually rather cheap and many times you can get someone to teach you for free.
you can read sheet music.....or if you are more familiar with a piano roll just download some midi files of songs you are familar with and look at them. link them to an instrument to hear what they are doing.
even if you do learn to read sheet music, you'll find when you make your own music it's all done by ear anyway.....at least for me. i don't sit down writting random music on staff paper then see what it sounds like once i have 5 pages. i play it as i go.
another good reason for playing away from the computer is you won't feel the need to record everything. it could just be my thing, but i've heard some music on the internet that sounded like the person just hit record more often than not.
the best bet is looking in your local paper for piano lessons. hands on learning, hands on correction, and hands on practice.

[kovacs]

I second piano lessons. I have years of music theory and even 4 years of piano lessons (I majored in guitar) but I still struggle somewhat with composing. I currently take lessons from a guy who specializes in accompaniment and chord voicings and so far it's been great - we work on chord progressions, inversions, alternative voicings etc, but we started on a very basic level and took it from there.

Nothing beats a good teacher. Learning music theory on your own is a tough task.

[Distorted_Mastermind]

I second piano lessons.

Nothing beats a good teacher. Learning music theory on your own is a tough task.

exactly. i've been taking lessons from a very much overqualified (if you can be) friend. we've been working on more advanced stuff these days, but started fairly basic. he mainly works with me on ear training...it's his specialty, but he is one of those rare cases that can randomly write notes on staff paper and it will sound good.
bottomline i went into it with an open mind, had no idea that he used to teach at music conservatories at more than one college, and never doubted he knew more than me. he could've been some guy off the street and i could easily have learned just as much. it's helped my music bigtime. i used to just do same 2 or 4 bars over and over again while overdoing it at the same time. now i use less tracks that are heavy, but leave room for vocals, and the songs flow rather than loop.

he tripped me out one day. he said most good songs have a format....it will always be in some incrimant of 4.....1 statement, 2 question, 3 answer, 4 break is a very good example he gave me. that may or may not make sense to anyone else, but it helped a ton at the time becuase i was just getting to the point i knew the songs needed a direction and it works.

bottomline is it's best to keep an open mind and not act like a knowitall (which is my natural instinct).

but i couldn't have said that quote better myself...didn't try , and didn't come close. going overboard seems to be my thing. luckily my music is getting more tastefull

[imekon]

Books on music use music notation to describe the theory. I don't know of any book that uses a piano roll to describe music theory.

Learning the piano is one way to learn music - however, is there another (or am I kidding myself)?

How about a piano roll that gives you hints, highlighting notes from a scale, or chord progressions etc. Wouldn't that be useful?

I've got Harmony Assistant, a notation editor, and it has automatic chord recognition. Trouble is, it uses standard chord names - I'm used to seeing chords as Roman Numbers, i.e. I, ii, iii, IV etc. Not as C, D, E, F...

Finale does the chord numbers as roman numbers, but it's not automatic! Don't know about Sibelius, I'd have to try the demo again.

At the moment, I've reached a point where I can create short melodies or rhythms. But how do I get to the next stage - a complete song? That is eluding me, frustrating me!

I could try the route of music lessons - I had a look at Adult Education courses - nada, zip. Perhaps the yellow pages might be next. However, if it's learning to play the piano, uh, I'm not sure that's what I want (back to the idea that there is another way).

Sibelius Compass certainly looks interesting, but not cheap! Anyone else tried it?