FL Studio 6 Mixer...

[Jaeson Merrill]

funny, i still find that FL rules all other hosts for what it does.

but rather annoying that it cant push ahead beyond these other issues.

[tony tony chopper]

Tony, the problem with FL's rendering is that the max buffer size sent to the UAD card by FL isn't actually the max buffer size, FL sends bigger buffers after that, so the UAD plugins get bypassed on renders.

I'm quite sure not (otherwise it'd be a bug in FL), and I see nothing wrong in my code, so I can only wait for a test plugin to show this (should be easy to code a little VSTi that compares both).

[pitchdrifter]

Well I was only quoting the posting of the UAD person of 2003, stating the description of that problem (someone quosted it in this thread further up).

best

Markus

[audiojunkie]

Gol,

I recognize that FL is starting to hit the ceiling of it's upgradability (without major rewrite work). I recognize that PDC is not something that is going to be easy to implement. I also recognize that it won't be in FL6 in any form. I'm not upset. I understand. I DO, however have a couple of questions that could help me work around this limitation, and I hope you will be able to help me. I recognize that SIR has a fixed initial latency and that I can use a plug-in (such as Voxengo's Sample Delay) to, in a way, synchronize things by delaying tracks that need delaying. Also, you stated the following:

PDC is useful. Not for impulse-based reverbs - I could care less about them. They add a non-neglectable latency so you'd rather avoid them. Although I wouldn't mind time-domain based one, with a zero latency at rendering time when CPU cost doesn't matter much. PDC is also not much useful for plugins that can exist with a zero latency.
PDC is useful for compressors - they only add a short latency, and they do need that lookahead. PDC is also useful for hardware-based generators, although those tend not to work with short buffers (if your generator crackles, don't expect PDC to fix this).

Ok, now here is my question: The compressors that need to see ahead. Do they need a fixed latency like the convolution reverbs (read SIR), OR is it a latency that fluxuates. In other words, can I use the sample delay plug-in to compensate for these compressors that you talk about, or is there some other problem involved that I don't understand?

Also, what is the best way to determine the initial delay of a plug-in, so that I can compensate for it? I guess what I'm trying to do, is to make a workaround that works for the way I do things. Then I won't be missing PDC so much, since I will have a way to make things work for me. Is there an easy way to find out what the plug-in's initial delay is?
Now about freezing: since I finally understand how the rendering works in FLS, I'm able to reduce my CPU load enough to do enough work on my slow laptop that I'm not in too much trouble. I still want it, but I am not crippled for not having it.

Thanks in advance for helping me understand these things.

--Sean

[james0tucson]

Question about PDC: On what order of delay are we talking?
My creative process basically requires everything in real time, live performance is everything -- if I can't use it live, then it's in a separate category of "production" tools, which I would never end up using.

So if PDC is all about delays on the order of ten milliseconds, that's one thing, but if it's aimed at longer delays, that's certainly useful in post-production roles, but it has no place in a musical instrument.

[headquest]

Question about PDC: On what order of delay are we talking?

Any, surely?

A one milisecond delay between parts can take away "tightness".

Some plugs do have a big delay, and not only UAD/etc hardware accellerated ones.

For example, it's not just SIR and other convuiltion reverbs (which GOL simply dismisses and says don't use them - strange attitude, dude!)...

...but also stuff like Waves' Linear EQ, which introduces massive latency considering it's basically an EQ!

Perhaps though, Waves don't code proper VSTs either though?

if I can't use it live, then it's in a separate category of "production" tools, which I would never end up using.

Most latency inducing plugs are production effects. Whether you use them live is up to you of course. But in FL you currently might as well not use them at all without PDC...

[headquest]

[The hyped word 1 or 2 years ago was 'PDC'. 'My sequencer is better than yours, it has.. *PDC*!'.

Surely not hype? I think that sequencers like Sonar, Tracktion and Cubase were adding PDC because their users wanted to make use of plugins from Waves, TC Electronic, UA, etc and so they NEEDED PDC. WHether that is the fault of the plugin coders of the host coders is not really relevant - that's a seperate debate, surely?

(Personally it looks to me as though VST coders constantly push the boundaries in terms of latency, CPU overhead etc, and I DO feel sympathetic to folks like you who have to then make allowancies. But I guess that is how the whole industry works)

Then the new hyped word was 'FULL PDC'. 'My sequencer has FULL PDC, yours is crap with just PDC'.

I suspect that is because it turned out that Tracktion doesn't have "Full PDC" afterall . Once Jules added his "Rack Filters" it became clear that PDC didn't work on them. People no doubt wanted to distinguish between software that had Full PDC and software that merely claimed to have PDC, but in fact only had limitations in this respect.

Full PDC can't be done in FL, and for logical reasons, not just technical.

As a lurker/potential customer I still don't really get that . As somebody said before, if Sonar - which had been going for years and surely has some complex routing oiptions, including multitimbral synths, etc - can have PDC and Freeze, why not FL?...

Ableton Live 5 now has Freeze and PDC which seem to have been seemlessly and brilliantly worked into another program with quite complex routing possibilities.

FLS is clearly in competition with the other sequencers out there, and I'm sure that you DO want to include Freeze and PDC, because without them you are basically falling behind, and potential customers like myself are holding back from buying.

The thing I really like about FL from the demo is the piano roll/MIDI editing. I don't want to bounce to an audio track (I can work with audio better in Adobe Audition or Live 5). I want to have MIDI editing options with the availability of freeze and PDC. FL is not an essential purchase - I have everything I NEED elsewhere. But I desire it because of its many fantastic strengths.

Of course we could still claim a full PDC, but that's marketing.

Nope, that's misrepresenting your product, and gets you reported to the Advetising Standards Authority

[xander]

Pardon moi Mssr Headquest, but I think you're making rather TOO large a case for PDC and whether it's so important.

I do think a lot of it really is marketing hype, as PDC is *NOT* essential for many. I've never really needed it, use a comfortable work-around when I do, and as a long-time FLS user, would rather see FLS not as bloated and convoluted as other s/w out there.

Besides, there are other, I think more important, things that we want Gol to be working on at the mo...

Cheers,
Alex

[camsr]

Will fruity still use that ugly grey color scheme? That alone is enough to make me switch to Reason or Cubase.

Customizable skins...

For ALL aspects of the gui....

[tony tony chopper]

Do they need a fixed latency like the convolution reverbs (read SIR), OR is it a latency that fluxuates.

I think they can use a fixed latency if they want. It's basically a lookahead to check the levels in advance to have a little more time to adapt the levels (not too abruptly).
That lookahead can be very small & neglectable, as in the (ultrafunk) compressor that comes with FL. I think it'd bring more troubles to want to adapt to such a small latency than to work with it.

Also, what is the best way to determine the initial delay of a plug-in

it's supposed to be a problem that you can obviously hear - so the idea is to introduce a delay until you can't hear it anymore

Question about PDC: On what order of delay are we talking?

compressors: small, IR-based reverbs or FFT-based effect, usually big (could be small, but I can't think of anything useful working with small FFT's)

[tony tony chopper]

Will fruity still use that ugly grey color scheme?

no, the same nice charcoal one it always had

That alone is enough to make me switch to Reason or Cubase.

problem (for you) is that cubase/sonar are now using similar charcoal colors these days..

[audiojunkie]

Do they need a fixed latency like the convolution reverbs (read SIR), OR is it a latency that fluxuates.

I think they can use a fixed latency if they want. It's basically a lookahead to check the levels in advance to have a little more time to adapt the levels (not too abruptly).
That lookahead can be very small & neglectable, as in the (ultrafunk) compressor that comes with FL. I think it'd bring more troubles to want to adapt to such a small latency than to work with it.

Also, what is the best way to determine the initial delay of a plug-in

it's supposed to be a problem that you can obviously hear - so the idea is to introduce a delay until you can't hear it anymore

Question about PDC: On what order of delay are we talking?

compressors: small, IR-based reverbs or FFT-based effect, usually big (could be small, but I can't think of anything useful working with small FFT's)

Thanks for the replies. I'm glad to know that the compessors don't change much. That will make it easier to compensate for.

Also, it makes sense about introducing the delay until you can't hear the problem anymore. I was just hoping there might be an easier way to know, without experimenting, exactly what the initial delay was. That way I could quickly insert it without difficulty. Doesn't the plug-in usually report the initial delay to the host? (I know not all plug-ins do this, but I thought a lot of them did.) It would seem that there should be some way to get that info quickly and easily.

At any rate, thanks for the info.

--Sean

[tony tony chopper]

FL6 will make plugin show what delay they introduce, if any, and will probably come with some 'PDC' aid (basically simple delay, either built-in or as a plugin), that you can use to do your own PDC manually.

[audiojunkie]

FL6 will make plugin show what delay they introduce, if any, and will probably come with some 'PDC' aid (basically simple delay, either built-in or as a plugin), that you can use to do your own PDC manually.

THANKS GOL!!! YOU'RE WONDERFUL!!!!!!! It's not "FULL" PDC, but it's a good workaround solution!!!! Thank you!!!!!!! I'm very, very, very greatful for your inclusion of this!

--Sean

[Hink]

Will fruity still use that ugly grey color scheme? That alone is enough to make me switch to Reason or Cubase.

Customizable skins...

For ALL aspects of the gui....

Man, the cliche response...it's sad as well...I dont remember anyone calling tascam or otari, neeve or mackie ect, and saying if you don't change the color I'm not buying it....I suggest with the amount of sales FL has they wont miss yours much, in fact it seems too me the only one who will get hurt is you are the one not getting the benefits of FL...because you don't like how it looks...personally I more care about the benefits of an app, and it's sound....what it looks like is up to the dev, not me it doesn't change anything about my workflow....forgive me but I have heard this silly lame argument so many times...