Sonar 5 has arrived...

[kp]

Warning: moving goalposts.

[_oswald]

I'm a Tracktion and ProTools guy, but I have to say, I'm EXTREMELY impressed at what Sonar has become. It has to be next in line for me and I would recommend it to anyone. I need cross platform, so at the time, it's not an option, and I'm happy with what I have, but still, VERY nice!

Koolkeys

I'm in the same camp as you, except I am thinking I can snag the upgrade price from Cakewalk Pro Audio for $349 for the Producer edition... and let me tell you, that's damn tempting.

And finally...NATIVE VST SUPPORT!!! No more wrappers!!! Midi outputting VSTi's working properly without the need for loopback devices or other workarounds!!!

I thought I read that wrong myself and I'll say this, the requirement of a wrapper was really putting me off in the past.

I want a Sonar 5 demo now. If it's half as good as I think it will be then I'll be taking a serious consideration to switching hosts.

[disturb]

I remember that when i tried S4PE, what bugged me the most was the cryptic midi editing, it seemed so hard to do such basic stuff as quantizing, enetering notes, editiong velocities, resizing, changing pitch etc. It seemed like i needed to pick a different tool for each of these ! ...

+1 with that....

They really need to address midi editing...in fact the whole Midi Piano Roll View GUI before I'd be tempted to upgrade.
..and it doesn't look like they've done it with Sonar 5.

Seriously, i'd like to know more about the piano roll, and the midi editing in general, since this is maybe the most important feature to me...

Did you guys come across some info about any imporvements on that side?

Or maybe some sonar users could debunk what i stated in this quote...? I haven't spent weeks with s4 i must reckon, but i doubt there are 'magic tricks' making life really easier (and i'm getting more and more picky about piano rolls since i bought eXT) ... ?

[headquest]

And finally...NATIVE VST SUPPORT!!! No more wrappers!!! Midi outputting VSTi's working properly without the need for loopback devices or other workarounds!!!

I thought I read that wrong myself and I'll say this, the requirement of a wrapper was really putting me off in the past.

I want a Sonar 5 demo now. If it's half as good as I think it will be then I'll be taking a serious consideration to switching hosts.

One thing that put me off Sonar when I demoed previous version was the impossibility in trying out anything involving VSTs, because the wrapper was not included in the demo

If/When the Sonar 5 demo comes out I will look forward to trying it out properly, and actually seeing how well I like it in use with VSTs.

[ceenda]

One thing that put me off Sonar when I demoed previous version was the impossibility in trying out anything involving VSTs, because the wrapper was not included in the demo

Totally! I simply could not understand the logic behind leaving the VST wrapper out. Which is why I spent ages just messing around with the native synths before getting irritated and uninstalling.

[headquest]

One thing that put me off Sonar when I demoed previous version was the impossibility in trying out anything involving VSTs, because the wrapper was not included in the demo

Totally! I simply could not understand the logic behind leaving the VST wrapper out. Which is why I spent ages just messing around with the native synths before getting irritated and uninstalling.

They went "one better" with P5v2, and left their Dimension synth out of the demo... even though that is apparently it's best selling point! Very strange...

[whyterabbyt]

Seriously, i'd like to know more about the piano roll, and the midi editing in general, since this is maybe the most important feature to me...

I never found it an issue. Most things you complained about (lengthen notes, shorten notes, change pitch, change velocity, drag note) can be done with a single tool, and you can switch tools with your keyboard with no fuss whatsoever whilst editing.

[DeBro]

Judging by your screen shot it looks like you haven't got rid of all that clutter to the left of each track.

You can pick what clutter to show to the left of each track with the tabs along the bottom. The screenshot has the advanced tab enabled, which shows everything.

lf

Agree with lf. What clutter on the left of each track though? Those are essential tools for recording and mixing that are easily accessable. That's less that what you'll find at the bottom of Tracktion's main window. If you done need every thing there, you use the tabs at the bottom. I personally don't find any impediment to workflow.

[hello1234]

However, there's quite some good lookig features coming along with Sonar 5. I hope they made the interface a bit more appealing to my taste, I never liked the overall layout at all.

Ah, quite an understatement. While it *is* extremely useful, Sonar apparently continues to incrementally creep towards what seems to be an inevitable demise: death by bloating. The exponential increase in patched together features, and the outdated layers of dialogue-base UI with which they do it, are fearsome.

agreed.. theres so much bloat.. I hope that is improved.

buuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrp! Please pass the tums extra super-strength........

this is probably the thing that turns me off the most. The "aw hell, just throw another coat of paint and some freshener on" approach.

It seems like a very minor update imho compared to the "omg buy now it'll be the greatest update ever" bs..........sonar 4 was actually a huge step, but not this incarnation.

The 64 bit stuff could be useful about a year from now when vista has been out for a while and dev's have the right drivers.

Native vst support. Very important, but so many others have it already.......way behind. You watch, put this in the bank and collect interest on it though.....it'll be the vst wrapper (the worst one ever!) disguiused as native..........

The verb sounds cool, but this voxengo yanking it so suddenly, and now we know why "thing" is a bit un-nerving to me. Seems wierd.

........yeah i'm babbling...........

[ztutz]

I too read Paul Whilte's leader (always do) and I take the points he makes. But I think there has to be a happier medium between full-on functions and GUI design/workflow. The program that gets the balance perfectly right is going to win the current host war that is going on. Sonar may be lagging here...

I also think that of the "big 3", Sonar is currently the most under threat from the likes of Traktion and Ableton. Logic has a commanding pro user base and is the natural choice for all mac owners. Cubase is cross platform, very capable, has a huge following, is used in schools everywhere, and can be upgraded to Nuendo.

This is an interesting point - I agree. I also think that in the prosumer segment (which is the nice thing to call people who are too cheap to pay rediculous prices for "real professional gear", like me) the winds of change blow constantly. Either Sonar has "made it" to the spot where people just bite the bullet and upgrade (ala protools) or they will take it on the nose soon. People will lose interest in buying the latest bundle from Cake, and move on to buying a much more modern, more integrated bundle from, say, Abes.

I agree with others who think that Sonar's problem has more to do with design and workflow than with feature hiding. Every time I upgrade to a new major release of any of the hosts that I use, I record a piece and master it in all of them - Sonar *never* does well in this exercise, yet I continue to use it for certain micro-features that it does very well indeed, such as after-the-fact MIDI editing.

There *is* a host that is even worse than Sonar. Fruity is just amazingly terrible from a consistency point of view... <running away and ducking />

[ztutz]

This view of bloatware and clutter is a boat load of crap. The GUI is highly configurable to one's tastes. There are options to hide things if you so desire without loosing functionality. Here's a shot of my default work space in the recently released SHS4. Key bindings and keyboard shortcuts have replaced buttons. The right mouse button is also very useful. If you don't want the midi inline view, you can close it. The colour scheme has changed dramatically and a lot of things have been removed from the initial launch view.

If this is true, DeBro, then Cake should pay someone to spend a lot of cycles designing pre-built layouts. But having spent a lot of time editing (and customizing) Sonar, I think that it is a deeper problem.

In fact, I think that the customizable approach used by Sonar is actually the cause of the problem. It leads to a situation in which the marketeers at Cake can purchase new morsels from most excellent small independent software creators who hang out on KVR, and then jam these new instruments and effects into their customizable framework with impunity.

At the same time, they can see Abes coming over their shoulder, and jam a bunch of stuff into the product that makes it possible to claim on their website that it has the same features (even though those features don't actually work in a useable way since the realtime response is abominable, the number of clicks is rediculous, etc. etc....)

And so on...

[headquest]

It leads to a situation in which the marketeers at Cake can purchase new morsels from most excellent small independent software creators who hang out on KVR, and then jam these new instruments and effects into their customizable framework with impunity.

That's an interesting point, too. It surprises me that Cakewalk don't come in for the same criticism as Apple/Logic...

Apple (relatively big) buy EMagic (relatively small) and thereafter cease support/availability for everyone other than their own customers (i.e. Logic becomes Mac only).

Cakewalk (relitively big) buy Ultrafunk (relatively small) and thereafter cease support/availability for everyone other than their own customers (i.e. Sonitus effects become Sonar only).

I find it hard to tell the differece between the two (from a *moral* or *business* perspective).

And yet Apple become hated by loads of people, while Cakewalk are congratulated for making a wise purchase. What gives?

[pummel]

Given all that has been said, do you think the upgrade from studio edition 3 to studio edition 5 is worth the $100 ?

I would think yes, were it not for the addition requirement to upgrade win2k to winXP.

[Hybernation]

After taking screenshots, I have to agree with you guys! What was I thinking, look at these awful cluttered screens... I almost don't know where to begin!!

not to sound to harsh, but "R.T.F.M." comes to mind.



Really, folks, highly advanced software is always going to LOOK Complex until you dive in a learn the basics. Once you learn how to use all those widgets on the "Console View" pic you supplied, it's not complex at ALL, and you are GLAD they are all there, instead of having to click all over tarnation to find these features.

[AD80]

It leads to a situation in which the marketeers at Cake can purchase new morsels from most excellent small independent software creators who hang out on KVR, and then jam these new instruments and effects into their customizable framework with impunity.

That's an interesting point, too. It surprises me that Cakewalk don't come in for the same criticism as Apple/Logic...

Apple (relatively big) buy EMagic (relatively small) and thereafter cease support/availability for everyone other than their own customers (i.e. Logic becomes Mac only).

Cakewalk (relitively big) buy Ultrafunk (relatively small) and thereafter cease support/availability for everyone other than their own customers (i.e. Sonitus effects become Sonar only).

I find it hard to tell the differece between the two (from a *moral* or *business* perspective).

And yet Apple become hated by loads of people, while Cakewalk are congratulated for making a wise purchase. What gives?

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/Sonitus/sonitus.asp