Sonar 5 has arrived...

[WillieJenkins]

oh and WillieJenkins, you are a prime example of what a "fanboy" is.

Don't take critique about your favourite host so personally. I was just giving constructive critique and even gave examples of what I thought could improve Sonar. If you read my earlier posts before the GUI debate you would have noticed that I was very impressed by the newest update.

- bManic[/u]

Actually at this point Live5 is my favorite host Sonar runs a close #2 tho.

I'm just trying to defend Sonar's UI / GUI / layout. I think its by FAR the best of all the hosts out there. It very simple, and just allows you to work efficiently. I don't buy the "cooler guis inspire" comments. I agree a bad ui can hinder workflow, and a good one can improve it, but as to the idea of actually "inspiring" one to make better music.. thats kinda silly.

I'm far from a fanboy tho, I can give you a laundry list of things that I'm not thrilled about with sonar

- Drum editor not that useful
- No real easy way to loop over 2-4 bars of music to add midi in successive passes (for drum programming via keyboard), at least compared to Live
- Better notation
- Automation can get weird at times, especially automating with external knobs/buttons.
- SIDE CHAINING OF PLUGS (ie effects rack)

I just saw a ton of the "sonar ui sucks" crowd come out, and decided to post my opinion that I think its great!

Sorry if I mistook your comments

[ztutz]

I think sonar has the best gui, btw.........even better than prtools...............ok.....that's not saying much I admit

ROFL

When do get to start the "protools sux" thread?

[Alex Westner]

Brandon(Cakewalk) quote:
"Clip based effects and envelopes with full PDC. Again, quite useful. "

Are these clip based effects active only when the clip plays ( like in Samplitude) ??

If they are not, then the whole FX per clip would be useless due to CPU usage. I wouldn't want to have lots of clips with chains of FX clogging up the CPU. Freezing each in turn would also be a logistical nightmare. So...?

They work like effects on tracks. Properly implemented DX and VST effects should use less CPU when dormant than when audio is passing through them so CPU usage should be no higher and conceivable lower.

However, there is another important point to the clip FX. If you have a multi-lane track with say vocal takes. And you don't want to apply a delay or distortion for example to all clips (using the FX bin) then clip based effects are very useful because you can just apply that effect to the clip of choice and not the entire track. Not to mention you can draw effect clip automation and this automation (as well as the plug) will go wherever the clip goes allowing you freedom of arranging without having to worry about the effects and/or their automation. HTH

So Cakewalk has missed an opportunity. 'FX per Clip' should really be active when the clip plays only!


Even with those "properly implemented DX and VST effects", as you say, doing what you describe in the second paragraph, is going to cause CPU overload, at least in a full project with plenty of audio and VSTi stuff !

Imagine I have many of these tracks each with a few clips with effects...

If you implement a feature, why not do it properply ?
This 'FX per clip' is currently a half-baked idea.

I think you may have misunderstood. Here's what Brandon said:

"Properly implemented DX and VST effects should use less CPU when dormant than when audio is passing through them so CPU usage should be no higher and conceivable lower."

The language is a bit safe, but the idea is that, yes, the effects are active at all times, but when they are not in use, we stream silence to them. If the plug-ins know not to process silence - and most good plug-ins do know this - then the CPU hit should be minimal.

[saturdaysaint]

As a Sonar 4 user, my main beef with the program was juggling windows (playing around with floating windows was annoying), so I'm thrilled that I'll be able to access everything, including Tempo View and effects windows, in one neatly organized Track View. FYI, most of the other toolbars and windows shown in that screenshot can be easily docked or hidden (or revealed) with the press of a hotkey. The rest of the features look like excellent refiniments of existing features, hardly "bloating". If anything, Sonar is quicker (literally, with the 4.03 update) and more intuitive to use than ever.

The addition of a good convolution reverb, one of KVR's all-time highest ranked synths (Pentagon), and a Melodyne-style time/pitch shifter make this a great deal, especially as an upgrade.

[Lunch Money]

spe·cious P Pronunciation Key (spshs)
adj.
1. Having the ring of truth or plausibility but actually fallacious: a specious argument.
2. Deceptively attractive.

I didn't know that! What a great word to add to my vocabulary. It seems like a word I should have known for decades, but somehow it's gone under my radar.

Oh, and... er... Sonar 5 looks great... and stuff.

Greg

[Trancit]

Brandon, please answer to my question:

When I`ve seen the screenshots of V5, I recognized that all shown effect GUI`s doesn`t have the "normal window" (I don`t know how to call it) anymore in which I could saved my own snapshots/presets in the middle of the upper side...

Is this correct??? Doesn`t they exist anymore in Sonar??

If so then please bring them back...they were one of the mainfeatures of sonar to have the abillity to save snapshots of plugins within the host....


Trancit

Not sure of the screenshot you speak of and I hope I'm understanding your question properly.
At any rate, you can defintely still save your custom plugin presets in SONAR5 as in previous versions.

Thanks.

Ok I`ll try again

In S4 every Plugin has a kind of a "window" around it with the normal title bar (p.e. 1-Cyclone [1:Loop] -Sonar 1)...below this title bar there is a pulldown menue in which I can save my snapshots and there is a little floppydisk icon and a little cross beside this pulldown menue...you know what I mean????

And in this screenshot from Sonar 5:

http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/SONAR/collage.htm

no single effect GUI or the GUI from psyn II have this this "window" around...are those "windows" only cut away for this screenshot to save screen space, or won`t plugins in Sonar 5 have this "window" anymore...this was my question...and if I did understand you right...they will be still there, right???

Trancit

[vksf01]

2) Even the DX versions are locked to Sonar. When I ran the S4 demo, Adobe Audition (which I have, and which is both DX and VST host, but audio only) scanned and located the DX Sonitus plugs, but displayed a message to say they are only available in Sonar

Hmmm, the DX version of the Sonitus plugs may not work in AA but they do work in other hosts...I have tried them in Logic5.5 and they work there.

I suppose having both VST and DX versions would be nice. Maybe Sonar 5 ships with both.

yes, i've used the sonitus plugs in both sound forge and vegas as well so i don't think they're locked to sonar

[christianmusicmaker]

The language is a bit safe, but the idea is that, yes, the effects are active at all times, but when they are not in use, we stream silence to them. If the plug-ins know not to process silence - and most good plug-ins do know this - then the CPU hit should be minimal.

I agree with Mr. Alex Cakewalker here

I think this is probably the best implementation of clip based FX then. If it avoids the approach that Samplitude uses. No lost reverb tails...

I have wondered about the complaints about Sonars Vst wrapper FWIW, I have probably "wrapped" about 100 plugs over the last year or so (mainly freebies ) and only had maybe one or two that did not work or wrap properly in about 2 years.

It really is not a problem at all for me.

Ok guys...after 19 pages I think I should list my key features in Sonar 5 hee hee

1. Tabbed views...

Finally Sonar combines a massive feature set within one view on the main screen.

Benefits..
I can now programme drums and carry out all my midi editing from the main screen, but also tab through any other views like video,Event list, Markers view e.t.c
Workflow wise this will really help speed things up even more.Great feature.

2.RXP...(with tempo sync)
Woo hoo...this means I will be able to use this thing in a similar way to Stylus RMX...brilliant.

Benefits
Stylus is a fantastic tool, but sometimes I just want to load up something simple to get the job done as Stylus is a bit heavy on ram and CPU.Although I have MicroDicer (very good) as well, but it appears I will be able to just install S5 and possibly drop RMX and Microdicer now... Especially as I am looking at a new Pentium D dual core soon - ish.

3. V - Vocal
Very nice addition that plugs a hole in Sonars FX arsenal.Totally unexpected.

Benefits
Not much information on this yet but if it can rival Autotune or Melodyne then it will save me a bit of cash as I am currently looking for those sort of plugs.

4.Integrated inline midi editing

Sonar meets Tracktion? This feature provides a second route to editing midi on the main screen, fantastic.

Benefits

This gives me a luxury of options midi wise for editing and removes the need to have a separate Piano Roll floating view open...like ever

5.Envelope automation drawing enhanced with tempo-sync patterns, freehand...

Interesting creative feature.

Benefits

The Tempo sync aspect of it sounds really interesting, should have plenty of fun with that.

6.Clip based FX

This looks big, very big...I use Tracktion for collaborative work and this really is a great feature to use.

Benefits
I won't have to change my FX usage when moving between Sonar and Tracktion anymore. Even though hosts do effectively the same thing, using a different host can be like learning a new language

7.Bit bridge

This is a very thoughful inclusion indeed.

Benefits

Well, it would not be much use if Cakewalk offered the 64bit environment but also said "say good bye to your favourite 3rd party plugs as well mate". So this little bit bridge carries alot of weight. Enjoy the 64 bit environment *and* keep all your plugs.Great.
The Sonitus plugs are pretty hot anyway IMHO.

8.Pentagon

Never been there before:D but it can join Dimension in my synth collection...
If it sounds as good as Rene's other creations...it should be a very nice addition to Sonar.Especially if it's sounds like Dimension.

Benefits

I think it costs about £75 on its own. Pysn II would probably retail for that much as well...already up to £150 which is way more than the upgrade price from Sonar 4 to 5 Producer.Very good value for money(IMHO). Finally Sonar has some heavy weight synths.

9.Track templates

P5v.2 Device groups in Sonar really.

Benefits...
This will save me a *huge* amount of time. Possibly my top feature. It even extends to track folders!

[bmanic]

I just saw a ton of the "sonar ui sucks" crowd come out, and decided to post my opinion that I think its great!

Sorry if I mistook your comments

It's ok. I also get ticked off by simple "it sucks blah blah blah" posts too which is why I usually try to write "it sucks blah blah because blah blah and could be improved by blah blah blah".

No, seriously, the basic layout of the GUI is not too bad in Sonar but the graphics of all elements could be a bit clearer, this is what I meant with the 3D shading of knobs/buttons/meters etc. It just makes it quicker for the eye to spot.

Whyterabbyt:

About the clip based effects, I think they are mostly useful for doing 'spot' corrections to audio material. That is, separate compression/eq for certain passages. As for the AUX send capability of samplitudes clips, I don't think it's meant as a workaround but rather as another creative option. Imagine sending just one certain syllable to the delay and the next to the reverb first which is also sending to the delay. Stuff like this is quite interesting sounding. Personally I find the addition of clip based effects in cakewalk a very wellcome feature and definately puts it ahead of cubase/logic in my book! The possibilities are mind boggling (of course this can be done as offline processes in cubase/logic but it gets tedious to keep track of the original material).

Cheers!
bManic

[thunderkyss]

'FX per Clip' should really be active when the clip plays only!

Indeed. I'll have to stick with Cubase SX then.

So does Cubase work like Samplitude, Traction then,?
It appears that IT IS a standard then ? Three major PC apps have it. Sonar chose to ignore it. Hmmm.

No no no, Cubase doesn't do this yet, not at all.

It's just that this feature got me interested in switching to Sonar, untill I heard about the FX using CPU while idle, that is.
I agree with whyterabbyt that it still is a nice feature, but it's better implemented in other hosts AFAIK.

the thing is that a properly written plugin will not use any CPU unless audio is running through it. Open a project with however many plugins......if your CPU meter is reading anything before you push play, you have an ineffecient plugin.........asking Sonar to do something the plug-in manufacturer should've done, is silly.

[Stupid American Pig]

Thunderkyss-

P.A.T. World Wide from that west side FOOL...

[whyterabbyt]

Whyterabbyt:

About the clip based effects, I think they are mostly useful for doing 'spot' corrections to audio material. That is, separate compression/eq for certain passages.

Sod the intention though Now they're basically little baby tracklets that can be placed where you want them. Thats pretty darn neat.

As for the AUX send capability of samplitudes clips, I don't think it's meant as a workaround but rather as another creative option. Imagine sending just one certain syllable to the delay and the next to the reverb first which is also sending to the delay. Stuff like this is quite interesting sounding.

Ah, I get you. Presumably though that can still more or less be done in S5 using the buses available to the track the clips are on. Crumbs, as haydxn would no doubt say.
More flexibility is always good though.

[bmanic]

Ah, I get you. Presumably though that can still more or less be done in S5 using the buses available to the track the clips are on. Crumbs, as haydxn would no doubt say.
More flexibility is always good though.

Yes, this can still be done in nearly all hosts by simply automating the send so samplitudes "uniqueness" is just another way of doing things. Like somebody already said earlier, all the major hosts seem to be offering about the same options now, it's no more a question of one being more "powerful" than another (which samplitude could claim for a long time because of their object oriented approach) but rather a question of which hosts workflow does the user prefere. Which is great for the consumer!

Cheers!
bManic

[munchkin]

I think basically, hosts are continuing to converge in terms of feature sets. There might be the odd new innovation, or 'maverick' design ethos (eg Live) but in the end these things converge, and the main difference is implementation and workflow philosophy...

That said, I would like to see something far more sophisticated in terms of scripting for Sonar, from the operations/UI point of view, tied to MIDI and/or keypress operations.

(A solid MFX-based replacement for CAL would be nice as well.)

I agree, all the hosts seem to be trying to develop the most comprehensive feature set. I wonder if this isn't creating a Frankensteins monster where host have all these features bolted on but the design is not updated ergonomically.

I re-read the new features in Sonar 5 and I think it claims that windows can be docked anywhere. This sounds interesting. I'd love it if I could dock a synth and an MFX next to its midi track. Or the loop tool and the VST FX next to its audio track. I've always loved how ACID docks all it's windows below the track window. If Sonar does modular docking then it will top ACID.

Scripting is a wonderful tool and one that Vegas does very well. If Sonar had the scripting capability of Vegas then we would enter a whole new arena of development. Scripting is a godsend for executing a number of commands at the same time. Take a look at Vegas to see how scripting can really speed up the process.

Another thing I'd like to see in Sonar that Vegas offers is the ability to load other projects into the project you're working on. It does this by loading a frozen version of the project so that cpu is conserved. This is great for previewing how one project (or files of another project) might work in the project your currently working on. If you decide to incorporate the sub-project it can be unfrozen and edited in the main project. I think Live offers a similar facility where projects and files that make up a project can be loaded into other projects.

I often wish I could load part of a track from one project into the project I'm working on in Sonar.

[hello1234]

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