Comparison of Samples to Real Orchestra - Which is Which?

[james0tucson]

When you can fill Avery Fisher Hall at the ticket price that is usually charged for the New York Philharmonic, and have this software do the performance, using amps and speakers of your choice, do let us purists know

Okay, so the concert audience will never be satisfied for psychological reasons as well as technical... So do this... Get an NPR classical station to broadcast a concert program, but don't announce that it's a synthesizer. See how many are fooled.

Something like this, the Turing test for the synth orchestra.

[Garritan]

Kudos to those who were brave enough to guess and some on the various forums got remarkably close.

Here is a narrated version with the times:

http://www.garritan.com/mp3/Dvorakcompa ... ration.mp3

And here are the times for the original file (which is linked in the first post of this thread:):

0:00 Real
:15 GPO
:40 Real
:49 GPO
1:24 Real
1:38 GPO
1:53 Real
2:13 GPO
2:24 Real
2:36 GPO
2:45 Real
3:11 GPO
3:30 Real
3:47 GPO
4:16 Real
4:27 GPO
4:59 Real
5:10 GPO
5:23 Real
5:30 GPO
6:09 Real
6:24 GPO
7:10 Real
7:30 GPO
8:08 Real
8:20 GPO
8:48 Real
8:53 GPO

Thanks to Dan for doing this. It must have been very time consuming to do this comparison and takes a remarkable skill to do so. What is amzing is that one person can do this - Dan wore the hats of conductor, engineer and each and every player of the orchestra.

If you listen closely the differences become more apparent. Although this is a fun exercise and samples can be an excellent learning tool, it is not a replacement for the real thing. Orchestras are made up of people who devote their lives to perfecting their instrument. This will not be replaced by static samples anytime soon.

Thanks for listening.

Gary Garritan

[Gregjazz]

Although this is a fun exercise and samples can be an excellent learning tool, it is not a replacement for the real thing. Orchestras are made up of people who devote their lives to perfecting their instrument. This will not be replaced by static samples anytime soon.

Thanks for listening.

Gary Garritan

+1!!

I'm looking forward to hearing the mp3 (downloading now).

[james0tucson]

I am not sure what this is supposed to proove?

It's supposed to show potential customers that the product is worth the asking price. Lots of people would like to mock-up an orchestration, even if they intent to eventually put it in front of a real orchestra. And lots of TV and Film folks don't care that it's not perfect, because if it's good enough to make the ambient effect needed, it's *done*. People will watch your tv show from beginning to end and never wonder whether that's an orchestra or a synth playing the background music.

The fact that a production shop can avoid the cost of recording an orchestra when the product doesn't really call for it, is quite valuable to some folks. Likewise, the ability to add good orchestral parts to your computer music compositions has a value too.

The point of the exercise was to show that the sample library is good enough to survive a passable AB test with an mp3 of a mundane recording of an orchestra, and determining which is which, is an exercise that requires some effort.

That's actually rather amazing.

Unfortunately, I think it also means that I'll never see another ballet performance with a live orchestra.

[PaulG]

And this is so obvious it goes beyond mentioning, but the learning potential of having a full-fledged symphonic orchestra at your fingertips is awesome.

[Caleb]

Gary, thanks for putting up this example. I didn't really try to pick myself because I had a feeling I wouldn't be able to. I just sat back and listened and thought it sounded sensational.

Now I can see that it can be done, but there's just the small matter of doing it myself...much more of a problem I think.

Overall though, this really does offer a concrete example of what is possible.

By the way, is Dan available for lessons?

Caleb

[Beardedone]

Even if you are not aiming for performance results, which GPO is very capable of btw, the benefit of having orchestral sounds at hand to score and work on musical ideas is a wonder. This demo show that the goal of a sample-based full symphony orchestra that can fit onto a single computer has been achieved. To me it is a great gift.

Thanks Gary!

[BFDrummer]

Unfortunately, I think it also means that I'll never see another ballet performance with a live orchestra.

hmmm I doubt anyone would ever do that. Hope not anyway. Not for classical ballet- full on three-acters. You still need a conductor. Because a conductor will be not only interpreting the score infront of him and conveying this through the orchestra in the ordinary way a conductor would, but also working with the dancers on stage. So it has to be live.

At times he may be dictating the tempo and pace of the music, more likely with corps de ballet sections of a ballet, but at other times the dancers will be more in charge of the tempo and feel of the music with the conductor following their lead to a greater or lesser extent. This is more likely to occur, say, in a pas de deux or solo especially during the adage movements. A ballerina might hold a position (an arabesque en pointe for example) during a sustained note at the end of a phrase and the note is held for as long as the ballerina decides to hold that position. It is a very subtle interplay between the two.

A conductor might also help out a ballerina by slowing down or speeding up the end of a musical passage if she's doing a difficult fast enchaînement down the diagonal (pique turns and so on) and is getting out of time but needs to finish on a particular beat. eg di do di do di do di do dii doo diiii doooo diii do!

Also all dancers dance differently - different body types take different amounts of time to jump, turn etc and so need more or less music when doing so and the conductor must adjust accordingly straight away- the same programme will usually have a number of different casts on different nights all requiring slightly different scores.

In a classical ballet it's common - after each solo variation or pas de deux - for the audience to clap and the man and/or woman to take a quick bow. Applause can also happen at pretty much any time and so the conductor needs to decide whether to stop the music or not and if so when to carry on again.

Just a few reasons why you will always need live orchestra and a conductor for ballet. There is plenty of *modern* ballet around with pre-recorded scores of non orchestral stuff, usually plotless, non dramatic (as in conventional story ) ballets using Philip Glass, Barry Adamson, Thom Willems, etc -there's a shed load of edgy ambient, industrial, glitchy modern ballet scores.

But for full length classical ballet you could not do it with sampled orchestra or pre-recorded real orchestra. Well you could but it would be shit. I mean, I love my VSL library it's amazing, but can you imagine seeing the following ballets without a real orchestra and a conductor? Prokofiev's 'Romeo and Juliet', Stravinsky's 'Rite of Spring', Mahler's 'Song of the Earth', Massenet's 'Manon' or Tchaikovsky's 'Swan Lake'

[james0tucson]

But for full length classical ballet you could not do it with sampled orchestra or pre-recorded real orchestra. Well you could but it would be shit.

Most ballet companies perform with recorded music already. The practice is so common that my complaints, after being shocked by it, were met with puzzlement and *rebuke* on the ballet newsgroup.

I have always regarded ballet as a venue for orchestral music, not as a dance art that has music as an incedental component. Ballet companies understand this, but cannot afford to produce the act with an orchestra, so they use recordings.

My position is, it would be better to refrain from making such a production, than to ruin the art form this way. By doing it wrong, they are taking an opportunity that won't exist for a company who might do it right.

I'll never forget the feeling I had when I walked into the hall, with $65.00 tickets mind you, expecting to hear an orchestra play Tchaikovsky, only to be treated to a recording on a mediocre sound system! I was so angry, and it didn't help when the director explained to me that it was common, that ballet would not be produced at all if it were not for recorded music, etc.

I did ask him if he thought opera would be acceptable with singers and recorded music, and at least he conceded my point, but didn't agree.

*edit*

Yeah, I went back to the original newsgroups threads on this subject. Ballet people just told me I was a "music snob", told me that the economics don't allow for orchestras, told me that dancers prefer recorded music. I mentioned that my ballet ticket prices were about the same as what I've paid to see Yo Yo Ma, the New York Phil, and the Metropolitan Opera, so how do the economics not work? Someone even told me it was my responsibility to ask if the music would be live or recorded before buying the ticket. I suppose I should have asked whether the dancers would be live or a video tape.

[BFDrummer]

Most ballet companies perform with recorded music already. The practice is so common that my complaints, after being shocked by it, were met with puzzlement and *rebuke* on the ballet newsgroup.

Really? Where are they doing this? (I'm assuming somewhere in USA ?) I can see why *sometimes* a short ballet on a mixed bill (if it's the only piece requireing an orchestra) might use pre-recorded if the alternative was an orchestra being payed to turn up and play for 25 mins - although that is not at all unusual where I come (OK it's London which is a good place to be for music and dance, I know, I'm lucky). Or else a small company performing excepts, perhaps touring etc....

....but you mean proper sized companies doing classical or at least full length (3 act) works? ....eeeuw!

I have always regarded ballet as a venue for orchestral music, not as a dance art that has music as an incedental component. Ballet companies understand this, but cannot afford to produce the act with an orchestra, so they use recordings.

Totally! - that's why I listed those works all of which I've seen with a real orchestra - and all totally out of this world because of that fact (I forgot Hans Werner Henze's 'Ondine' which I saw recently for the first time! fantastic mad mad oceanic music )

I have seen one smallish company (assembled just for one production and on a tight budget) but on a fairly big stage use pre-recorded orchestral and it was just wrong! But it was OK because there was no other way round it.

But if that should ever become the norm like you say that would be the death of an whole artform!

...unique because it's made by three different performing artists: dancers, musicians and conductors.

(+costume, stage design, lighting of course which makes 6 artists in total!)

(and the choreographer!)

EDIT: no need to say where you're from in USA I just read your name properly -doh!

[Garritan]

Caleb, good point about showing "a concrete example of what is possible."

I think even better things are possible. Some compare sample libraries against each other in an attempt to attain a notion of what they think an orchestra should sound like. Why not compare it against the real thing if realism is a goal of orchestral mockups.

And "is Dan available for lessons? " - I can ask. He did do an Audio Mixing Tutorial which you may find helpful: http://www.garritan.com/tutorial/AudioMixing.htm

PaulG - you are right about "the learning potential of having a full-fledged symphonic orchestra at your fingertips is awesome". When I was in college what I had was a pencil, staff paper and a wild imagination. I think the possiblities are greatest in music education where people can learn about orchestral colors and combinations. This has been a valuable learning tool in many colleges and universities. I believe one of the best roles for sampling is in the learning environment. And a goal of education is to prepare musicians for the real thing.

BFDrummer, about ballet, nothing beats the sound of a real orchestra in a ballet. No question about it. Regretably, with budget cuts some ballet companies cannot afford a full orchestra. Some can barely keep afloat. What some of these companies have done is to combine samples with real players. I try to encourage that for realism (and to give musicians a job). There have been ballet performances using GPO alone or together with real players. The San Jose Ballet, the Sarasota Ballet and the Northwest Ballet to name a few. This year the entire Nutcracker ballet has been realized with GPO. The tempo can be varied depending on the sequencer that is being used. I'll post some Nutcracker cues in the near future.

Beardedone - Thanks. You're right that this was "not aiming for performance results ... the benefit of having orchestral sounds at hand to score and work on musical ideas is a wonder." But here is still a lot samples cannot do. We're dealing with sonic snapshots here and music is dynamic and breathing. There are techniques that players spend a long time perfecting. However, technologies are advancing and things are comnig down the pike that will represent some vast imnprovements. Right now one of the bottlenecks is in the controllers or the user interface. There is only so much a keyboard can do.

Thanks all for your comments.

Gary Garritan

[envoy]

Thanks all for your comments.

Gary Garritan

Gary, there wasn't a need for me to quote all your comment here, I just wanted to say that it is heartening and refreshing to hear *your* perspective on the role of sampled orchestral instruments. I still remember the first days of synths (and later, samplers) coming into the live music picture (the LA studio scene in the 70's) and how it was always viewed as an adversarial situation. And it is true that in some instances sampled orchestras or recordings are being used in live shows and dance performances. I'm not sure what to do about that, it isn't the best thing for a living, breathing art form, yet one can't deny that it occurs.

But your take on it sampling and sample useage is a very musically informed one, as to what they can, and what they *can't* do. I've played in a professional orchestra and done lots of live and studio gigs for over 30 years, and your comments on capturing the nuances of real-time, large-number-of-bodies ensembles is right on. Oh, and since I'm a percussionist, the timp samples gave it away in a heartbeat.

Anyway, FWIW, I appreciate your perspective, and it isn't one I necessarily expected from a producer of sample libraries. Frankly, knowing this, I'm a lot more interested in your product than before this little adventure!

Cheers,
Envoy

[bmanic]

Just wanted to chime in once more and say that Dan's work is truly impressive and the example file works well as an ear trainer too! It's really hard in some places to hear what is real and what not.

Cheers!
bManic

[BFDrummer]

Hi Garritan,

What you and James say is very interesting - I hope I do not come accross as elitist and snobby. I know I am lucky to live in London and it's not typical of the rest of the world! I guess I was just shocked at the idea of it being seen as 'normal' as opposed to an 'obvious compromise' (which is not to say it can't still be totally worth making -or seeing). If it's a toss up between no show or one with sampled orchestra then OK.... I see the benefits.

But I can see adopting sampled orchestras making it even harder for real orchestral musicians to get paid work - I read a recent article about how many UK musicians have to get second jobs etc despite being at the top of their proffession just because the demand for orchestras is dropping so much. Also if it becomes common knowledge that it is possible to reproduce real orchestras adequately enough on the cheap via samples (and if viewed as accepted practice) then maybe funding by subsidy/donation etc for the poorer companies will become even harder to secure.....

But on the other hand if people are at least COMPOSING with orchestral sample libraries they are still learning to compose for an orchestra - and their works or their skills might transfer to real orchestras one day if successful enough.

The live/sampled hybrid sounds intresting. And I can see how you could use different midi conductor tracks, too. I do the same myself for different performances of the same midi/sample based compositions. And I have to admit to being tempted to have a go at an orchestral ballet score myself (maybe just a small one start with!) since getting a small VSL collection a short time ago So that says a lot, I guess!

Just as long as people don't start forgeting there is a difference, and what exactly that difference is and that each has it's own place! Which of course we all agree on here

BTW i think the A/B audio Dvorak test was cool experiment, too.

[james0tucson]

If it's a toss up between no show or one with sampled orchestra then OK.... I see the benefits.

No, and here is the problem:

If some ballet company puts Swan Lake or Nutcracker in the civic center one season, there is ZERO motivation or opportunity for anyone else to do it. The opportunity cost is enormous. It does a great disservice to the community for a company to get the gig, and then do a mediocre or piss-poor job of it. It would be better if the civic center were booked for those nights with some other program. If there is a demand for ballet, at least there would be an opportunity for someone to do it right.

But on the other hand if people are at least COMPOSING with orchestral sample libraries they are still learning to compose for an orchestra - and their works or their skills might transfer to real orchestras one day if successful enough.

I'd make the observation that many of them composing for "orchestra" using keyboard voicings and temperaments. There are aspects to the various instruments that composers need to understand, but which are hidden from the novice who is using a clavier and a synth. The output may be convincing, but there are dimensions to orchestration that are not going to be fully understood by someone who takes only the synth approach. It might be very frustrating for someone to translate their opus when they place it in front of an actual orchestra, much like learning to fly on a simulator, only to discover that the situation is *very* different when you're at the yoke of a real plane.

On the other hand, somebody coming from the other direction, who understands how to compose and arrange for the instruments, ought to be in heaven with a synth like this.

BTW i think the A/B audio Dvorak test was cool experiment, too.

I wasn't fooled by the first Fr. Horn, but other than that, I got very few sections correct. Bravo. For the record, this product is on my budget for October.