KVR Audio

epsy · Post by **epsy** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:17 am

Sell me on this thing man. Everybody says it's the shit, but so far it just seems like Acid only with more midi capabilities. I'm deciding between ableton or sx 3

deggy · Post by **deggy** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:36 am

i'm with you. i don't really get what all the hype is over. i'm totally into logic pro 7/sx3 and though there are a few features in each that i might not like, they're great. they get the job done. the gui may not look as sexy, but it works (at least around 80% of the time anyways). i recommend sx3

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:15 am

I moved FROM Cubase SX1 - via Tracktion - to Ableton as my main host.

I guess my main advice to you is simply to download the demo, spend half an hour or so going through the onscreen tutorials (as the layout is very different from other sequencers, and it does some stuff you might not otherwise think of) and then decide for yourself whether it suits you.

To explain why I personally like it, I'm going to offer up a quote of mine from another thread which shows where I'm coming from anyway. The quote below isn't all specifically about Ableton Live... it's about how I conceive music in general:

"I would look at it like this:

All musical elements - pitch, time, rhythm, timbre, texture, harmony... -
are arranged in (for want of a better word) an organisational/conceptual
Grid. That Grid might take the form of

* a linear arrange page, as in Cubase or Tracktion
* a piece of staff notation
* or simply a progression of chords scribbled on the back of an envelope (remember those ).

But the success of the music will generally be linked to the extent that the musician understands and can navigate that grid (e.g. how effectively they can use the sequencer, read notation, or understand chords.) For example, in jazz music, the quality of improvisation will depend a lot on whether the player understands the formation of the underlying harmony.

Regarding sequencers, I think that for me the most effective sequencer will always be the one that make the Grid easiest to navigate. Many here know of course that I am using Ableton Live rather a lot these days. It allows me to navigate the grid easily and effectively... and in real time. This has so many benefits for me as a musician in terms of relying on musical instincts/timing rather than intellectual decision making when making an arrangement).

So my advice to people would have to be, if you want Cubase/ProTools/Sonar/Logic, go buy them. And good luck navigating their grid. But in the case of more radical programs, can we please encourage developers to keep moving forward and being brave in trying new approaches? It would be an enormous shame to see the newer, fresher sequencers turn into "bog-standard comprehensives", to pilfer somebody else's phrase "

I hope you find that explanation userful

kovacs · Post by **kovacs** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:16 am

Live 5 is excellent both as a doodle tool (ie, a scrathpad), composing, arranging, on-the-fly changes, live work (or make things sound live even if played at home). Plus it offers a genuine workflow which can be adapted to your own way of working.

To me Live 5 is simply different and it is great fun to work with. I use it for everything now, after having ditched FLS and Tracktion for it.

diverdee · Post by **diverdee** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 12:40 pm

For me I like the non-linear way of working, jam around like a sequence & bang it in a session view slot, do that a few times & then just kind of randomly trigger them until something comes together, fun to play with & zero intimidation factor.
I haven't really got into the audi side of it, but have a friend who works in it almost exclusively audio & he completely rips beats up.

jkotz · Post by **jkotz** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:48 pm

For me, coming from an audio only background, Live is the first program I've come across that let's me work with midi and audio in a way that makes sense. The flexibility and real-time capabilities of the send/return system in live, the way it implements (or doesn't)quantization, and the inclusion of a DJ type toolset (a crossfader! in a sequencer!)all made Live a much easier app for someone like me to get into. I should point out though that in my own estimation, I barely qualify as a musician. My background is in recording and live-audio, and the only reason I got into this whole computer-music thing was becuase i didn't get to do the traditional stuff very often. What I'm getting at, is that if you're a traditional musician, and know alot about midi and the older sequencers like Cubase, Live might seem a bit simple to you. In that case, the DJ features are probably the main thing that would interest you.
Oh, and it's stability for live use. The audio engine in Live is rock-solid. It's like the energizer bunny. Way better that Sonar 4.

Maniah · Post by **Maniah** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:38 pm

My background: Songwriter/performer

Logic and Cubase both feel like work.
Ableton Live is fun.

ABleton Live has a session view, arrangement view, track view and a browser. Three of which are visible on one page simultaneously. You know how important that is for creativity and song structuring.
Cubase and Logic...well..a lot more busy.

I have used both Cubase and Logic (among others) and it took me a good month or two to get in the mode of actually feeling comfortable and start writing songs.
It tooke me 2 days with Live.

Please note: this info is coming from ONE user and does not express the opinions of other uses out there. You may find users out there that find Live to be cumbersome, it all depends on your background.

One more for Live...it is an absolute blast to remix, tweak and mangle songs to create something totally different from the original composition. It is quick and done in realtime which is nice.

Hypertone · Post by **Hypertone** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 3:56 pm

I really didn't get it at first. It took a while for me to figure it out. I like the simplicity and how quick everything can be done. If I want to route a track to another and resample that in realtime, it takes like 2 mouseclicks. If I want to record a track through an effect and print the effect straight to disk I can do it easily. I know of no other host that lets you record and stop recording while everything is playing, you never have to press stop with live. I like how everything is drag and drop, I can drag in a vsti in under 2 seconds and be jamming. There are no windows cluttering up my screen and there are only 2 views, arrange and session. It's clean and simple, but at first, I also thought it was a glorifed Acid clone. I hate to admit this, but if it weren't for the "extended demo", I would have overlooked it and never would have bought it.

bernhardtjeff · Post by **bernhardtjeff** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:12 pm

i should probably have that demo a go again. i got it working fine and stuff, but at the time, i didn't see it as anything more than a tool for triggering pre-recorded loops in real-time, and i'm really not into looping. i know there's more to it than that, and i know i'll get kicked for asking this, but honestly, how MUCH more is there? is it really that good for someone who doesn't do much looping and stuff?

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:35 pm

bernhardtjeff wrote:i should probably have that demo a go again. i got it working fine and stuff, but at the time, i didn't see it as anything more than a tool for triggering pre-recorded loops in real-time, and i'm really not into looping. i know there's more to it than that, and i know i'll get kicked for asking this, but honestly, how MUCH more is there? is it really that good for someone who doesn't do much looping and stuff?

I know of quite a few users who barely use the Session View at all, and aren't into loops. They still find the tools in Live's Arrangement view the fastest and best for their linear composing/arranging.

For my part, although I do use the Session View a lot, I don't use loops much except for rhythm parts.

In terms of "how much" can Live do, it is a fully-featured sequencer now. The only universal advantage of the bigger programs like Cubase/Sonar/Logic/DP now is if you need surround sound and video, Live does not yet have them. After that, it's mostly down to preference and which working methods suit you best.

Cabinfever · Post by **Cabinfever** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:35 pm

It's fashionable. It has some novel ideas and tricks. It can do things quickly to loops and short phrases.

But it's not designed for longer pieces or soundtrack work. It's a doodle pad. A fun machine. It's what Acid might have been if all the brains hadn't of left SoundForge when Sony took over.

Most often you see Ableton used with one of the other main hosts, and that is *the* crucial indicator of the limited scope of Ableton.

headquest · Post by **headquest** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:39 pm

Cabinfever wrote: Most often you see Ableton used with one of the other main hosts, and that is *the* crucial indicator of the limited scope of Ableton.

I'm surprised you think that Cabinfever. On the Ableton forum there are loads of folks who have abandoned their previous host and just use Ableton Live 5, including seasoned professionals who have abandoned Pro Tools, DP, Logic and the others..

Are you a Live user yourself, or are you expressing an opinion as a non-user here? I'm just asking because I think the OP invited Ableton users to say what attracted them to Live, rather than FL/Cubase/etc users (who may only have a very limited experience of Live anyway) to come and say why they don't.

Rabid · Post by **Rabid** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:41 pm

bernhardtjeff wrote:... is it really that good for someone who doesn't do much looping and stuff?

Probably not. In my case Live is fine for using live, composing, or trying arrangements. At some point I always convert to linear before finalizing. I want to change up my loops and make each passage sound a bit different and I want to have total control of each note. That is when I need to go back to something like Sonar.

Live is a great instrument, but comparing Live to Sonar/Cubase/Logic is like comparing a guitar to a piano. Both are great instruments, but there is no use trying to make everyone and every song fit to one or the other.

Robert

nibbzious · Post by **nibbzious** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:46 pm

I can't say Ableton Live is like Acid. Because I tried Acid and I absolutely hated it.

Yes, they have similar features.

But what Ableton Live has... it's the workflow. Nothing can beat the overall interface and workflow of Live. Creativity and music just happens with that program.

And I pretty much use Ableton Live exclusively. Not even with a sound editor. I don't need to with Live. I chop my breakbeats manually by hand (I make drum n bass) inside the Audio tracks and it's just so easy to do, something I never did with Cubase.

I used it for the linear Arranger, not the Live Session thing. I've played with it, but I didn't really like it. I mainly just use it like any other sequencer.

Only problem is the bugs and shit. They really need to fix all the little problems it has.

DHR53 · Post by **DHR53** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 2:46 pm

"Composing music" ...IS hard work!

What's so special about Ableton Live 5?