Considering a move from Sonar to Cubase..

[Hybernation]

I feel that me posting stupid photos will be of equal or greater value than most of the other opinionated and worthless ranting. Enjoy.

agreed!

[HanafiH]

Yep - that's me, third from the left.

Ohhhhhh. That means...

[Cabinfever]

So, candid shots from our dancing careers now is it ? OK, I'm on the extreme left:



Curse that floppy sweater they forced me to wear !

[xylyx]

That's true; you can't insert a DXi during playback. I don't know what he meant by "open wavs" though...I guess hea meant you can't edit them during playback i n SONAR, which you can in Cubase. That is a nice perk, I find.

Still waiting for S5 but I find it strange that Cakewalk haven't changed this restriction, especially considering that you can change synths at will during playback in P5...

Oh yeah - and all the SONAR warning dialogues; like you get that Copy & Paste dialogue - every single ctrl+V!!! And the What to Delete dialogue, every time you press "delete". That's something that drove me away from Sonar, for sure. I forgot about that.

I think you will find that you could always stop those dialogs from appearing if you unchecked the box that said 'Show this dialog every time you move a clip'.

[HanafiH]

So, candid shots from our dancing careers now is it ? OK, I'm on the extreme left:



Curse that floppy sweater they forced me to wear !

I like the way half of you are in Cubase colours and the other half in Sonar, very politically correct that is.

[kevink]

The "native" vst support in Sonar 5 still sucks. They just integrated their crappy vst wrapper in de main program. It still doesn't scan vst's properly: you have to manually put settings for pdc, tempo based etc. and you get a long list of plugins. All your work in sorting your plugins in folders is lost that way.

That does suck a bit, but then again I, like most long-time Sonar users, have already invested in DirectiXer. ;o)

Question, I'm still using the Sonar4 Wrapper. What are the advantages of using DirectiXer instead?

There are some VSTis (e.g. Cameleon) that misbehave subtly using the Cakewalk (really FXpansion) wrapper which work perfectly with DirectiXer. There are others, (e.g. NUBI - or was it ORGANized Trio?), whose GUI doesn't work under the Cakewalk wrapper, but which function normally using DirectIxer. On the other hand, there is a smaller number of VSTis, (e.g. Symptohm) which actually seem to behave better with the Cakewalk/FXpansion adapter. If you're using a lot of VSTis in Sonar, you pretty much need to have both, and the cost of DirectiXer is low enough where that's not too onerous. If that remains true in Sonar 5, that's a shame - Cakewalk have had several years to get this stuff right - but it doesn't shock me in the least.

[kevink]

When it was announced that Logic support for PCs was to be dropped a few years ago, I had to find a new sequencer/host. I surfed around, browsed various forums, and ended up picking Sonar instead of Cubase. No real regrets here - it's gotten better and better since 2.2, where I started. I did try out the "LE" version of Cubase that was bundled with (I think) GPO, and I still fire it up from time to time as an experimental control when I'm having problems with a VSTi under Sonar, but I've never really mastered it.

But there's a reason to go to Cubase, and a reason to stay with Sonar, neither of which I've seen discussed in this whole silly thread.

The reason that I've been sorely tempted to go to Cubase is that I write MIDI plugins to suit my work and performance style (see http://www.paralogos.com/music ). Cakewalk published and semi-supported an SDK for building DirectX MFX MIDI plugins 2-3 years ago, but they stopped maintaining it a while back. As Microsoft keeps tweaking and changing the DirectX runtime, one has to go back and fix crap by hand in order to merge the old Cakewalk SDK with the MS DX SDK. The DXi/MFX developers forum on the Cakewalk web site is pretty much completely dead. And while one might be able use my plugins under Cubase, because there's an MFX->VST wrapper available, they're useless in any other host, which is a real shame, 'cos Orchid in particular was conceived for real-time use and would be pretty cool in something like Ableton Live. Cakewalk bet that, by working with Microsoft and leveraging DirectX, they could create a viable competing standard against Steinberg's VST. And there are even technical advantages to the DXi approach - just as there were technical advantages of Betamax over VHS. But it didn't work - the electronic music world belongs to VST. And while there are wrappers for VSTi intruments to make them look like DXis to Sonar, no one has built a wrapper that converts VSTi MIDI filters/effects into MFX. Maybe this has been fixed in Sonar 5, but I'm not holding my breath. So every now and then, I think about making the break to Cubase and learning how to write VSTi MIDI filters.

The main reason I've stayed with Sonar, and which I think is more broadly applicable than the MFX developer's whingeing above, is the difference in attitude between Cakewalk and Steinberg toward their customers. All one really has to do is read their respective user forums attentively to see this. Both companies make complex software that has occasional bugs, but Cakewalk really seems committed to getting things right. The rhythm of patch releases after each major Sonar release has been impressive, and the convergence on a stable product has been as good as I've ever seen in PC software. When the owners of VSampler, which was bundled with Sonar 3, tried to impose a copy protection model that Sonar users found onerous, Cakewalk intervened and got things sorted out - something they had no formal obligation to do. Steinberg, on the other hand, seems to be far more willing to let a minority of customers go hang, so long as their sales aren't being obviously adversely affected - or at least, that's the impression I've had reading their forums.

I think that's at least as important as having skins with nice colors.

[whyterabbyt]

/quote]
There are some VSTis (e.g. Cameleon) that misbehave subtly using the Cakewalk (really FXpansion) wrapper which work perfectly with DirectiXer.

What issues do you have with Cameleon?

There are others, (e.g. NUBI - or was it ORGANized Trio?), whose GUI doesn't work under the Cakewalk wrapper, but which function normally using DirectIxer.

Maybe that's one of the old versions of Nubi? Its been heavily rewritten I believe, and the current version only just got a GUI AFAIK. ORGANized Trio works fine here....
The one or two plugins with GUI issues that Ive seen have been sorted by manually resetting the X and Y size in the wrapper Properties.

[TeeLangSun]

My two or three cents: Firstly, I do agree that ASIO has never worked in Sonar as well as it does in any other sequencer I've used from Reason, to FL, to Cubase SX and every demo I've downloaded and tried out. It's not that it doesn't work, but it doesn't work as well. I'm currently using the MI4 Steinberg USB2 interface which came with Cubase SL system 4 but everything I've thrown at it works fine except Sonar. In Sonar, the playback is different, more or less jerky than with WDM drivers. With WDM drivers, the latency is no less than 10ms.

I've tried hard to take the Sonar route if for no other reason than to avoid the dongled Cubase route, but there are just too many things about Sonar that didn't sit well with me. I'd like to remove 60% of the options visible on each track in the arranger view which is not possible to my knowledge. I'd like to create a custom toobar at the top which is also not possible to my knowledge. Basically, if I want one widget, I have to have the rest of them. I can move them around, but that doesn't do it for me.

I don't like that double-clicking to maximize the arranger window for example, also maximizes the window of all the plugins and all instrument interfaces. Suddenly, an instrument has a massive blank box all around it that covers the entire screen. If I bring that back to normal, the arranger also comes back to normal. Is that the same in Sonar 5?

Sonar's piano roll is the single thing that made it impossible for me to work with Sonar since I spend a lot of time there. Cubase has an excellent way of dealing with the tools. I simply never have to change them. One tool to control them all. With sonar, one tool does essentially one thing. Select one tool and you can't hear a piano roll preview. Select another tool and it will only select a single note at a time with no key modifier option to change that. It's sort of mind boggling but maybe this is just fine for people who haven't had the option of just using a single tool that simply does everything although this does seem to be catching on.

I never liked Sonar's 2 tracks, one audio and one midi for each instrument. More useless clutter since no other sequencer I've seen needs two tracks for a single instrument.

I like how in Cubase I can grab 15 audio tracks, drop them in Cubases arranger window, and hit play and they all start playing instantly regardless of whether or not you can see waveforms. They just play. Sonar has also been known to take longer to just draw the waveforms.

The dongle is a pain in Cubase.

Sonar loads up and is ready to go much faster.

Cubase deals with Rewire much better.

Cubase together with Yamaha has implemented a total recall technology between hard and software that is beyond anything Sonar has to offer.

Cubase has better and more flexible key commands.

I definately like Cubase's workflow better but there are definately a few things in Sonar that I'd like to see in Cubase.

Sonar deals with the mapping of controllers and faders in a very no nonsense fashion while Cubase is as bad as it gets in this dept, although this was improved as far as the mixer is concerned in SX 3.1.

Sonar has always felt faster and snappier, but I have a rewire project that brings Sonar to it's knees while Cubase can handle it with about 45-50% CPU. I never understood that, but it's true.

I always felt like Cubase was this great lumbering beast while Sonar felt like working in a soft studio.

[kevink]

/quote]
There are some VSTis (e.g. Cameleon) that misbehave subtly using the Cakewalk (really FXpansion) wrapper which work perfectly with DirectiXer.

What issues do you have with Cameleon?

Any use of the modwheel would cause horrible zippering artifacts in any patch where the modwheel was used. This was 100% repeatable with the Cakewalk adapter and never happens with DirectiXer. There was some discussion of this over in the Camel Audio forum last year.

[Meffy]

I don't dance, I do computer stuff. Second from the left, holding a chunk of second-generation digital computer, that's me as a human.

[WillieJenkins]

cubase and sonar are woeful for 'real time use', they're both pathetically inadequate.

If Ableton Live is a 10
P5 is a 9
FLStudio is a 9
Cubase is a 3
Sonar is a 2

weird point to be arguing

We weren't talking about other sequencers, the original guy was asking about...oh, never mind.

yeah, I understand, i just find it hard to imagine that being the 'crucial factor' in deciding between the two, since they're both horrible at it.

It'd be like deciding between cubase / sonar in determining who handles video better. Again, compared to vegas, dvxpress, premiere, nuendo, etc etc they're both pretty barebones.

[WillieJenkins]

cubase and sonar are woeful for 'real time use', they're both pathetically inadequate.

If Ableton Live is a 10
P5 is a 9
FLStudio is a 9
Cubase is a 3
Sonar is a 2

weird point to be arguing

yeah i know i know.. But this is for serious studio work that involves Midi Hardware and Software. Cubase and Sonar still beat Ableton, P5, and Fruity in my oppinion.

Agreed 100000% and that was precisely my point. When comparing the two, we should be using their strengths to really get an accurate picture of which works best for an individual user. Comparing fringe features to make $500+ decisions seems strange... to me anyway.

Btw, I'm going to check your website soon, you seem to have the exact musical tastes as me based on your sig.

[stag]

ASIO and Sonar 4 at least,was very ackward, i think people who can get it to work shoud be given a medal.

I've had no problems per se, but it's true that in Sonar 2.2/3/4 Cakewalk had a fundamental bug in their ASIO implementation that introduced a single-buffer-latency-time delay between MIDI and audio playback. Several of us RME users managed to prove this, and it was semi-acknowledged by Cakewalk, but up to now it's never been fixed. RME, being a class operation, actually provides "Sonar ASIO" variant drivers that implement the spec as Cakewalk misunderstood it, for their Sonar customers, but it's almost as easy to work around the problem by introducing a compensating delay in one of the Sonar configuration menus.


Other than that, all of the horror stories that I've heard about Sonar and ASIO seem to have been traceable to badly written ASIO drivers. Of course, if you're stuck with a soundcard that has a wonky ASIO driver for which Cubase fails less dramatically, that could be an incentive to work in Cubase, but it's a second-order thing.

Precisely a FireFace, thanks for the tip, i wasn´t aware of it, also DSPF and SX were almost a perfect match i can´t say the same about Sonar.
The first time i got SX\Nuendo i was doing some noise after half an hour, only hadto go for the manual very few ocasions and because of input transformer and related MIDI stuff. the transposition of the hardware paradigm to software was very well nailed by ST, i don´t think they care much for other solutions, because on people use d to working with hardware mixers, SX\Nuendo is strictly FUN, you can use the maual to roll a spiffy to your friends.

BTW i don´t compare a toy aimed to DJ and loop trigging with SX or Sonar, but if so someone gives a 10 to live i´m forced to give a 20+ to Acid 5.

[SephDM]

Just joined the board, hi y'all.

I started out amazed by desktop recording back in 97. At the time I had an AWE32 for midi and a MIDIMAN for digital audio (always thought it a stupid name for a card that had no native midi onboard).

On that 233khz pc, I began to discover DAW softs.
I bought some piece of crap soft off ebay that barely worked, then I found Cubase 3.7 and Sonar Pro 9.

Cubase drove me nuts, getting the two cards to work usually required actually opening up my box and connecting/disconnecting pci cards (disturbing!) and sonar was like magic you could simply choose the card to out or in thru right there on the track parameters.
That blew my mind.

I used it until SX2 came out and there has been no looking back.
I checked back in with each updated release, demo'd them up, but man, Sonar sux.

Cubase is simply having a real studio at your fingertips. I still use outside softs in my mastering procedures (but not for much longer, I just read bout synching up two pc's using steinberg v-stack to actually have all effects vsts etc running from the 2nd pc!) like Audition 1.5, T-racks, but mostly cuz of resources during playback.

SONAR VST's DO NOT WORK PROPERLY AS VST's ARE DESIGNED FOR CUBASE.

Using vst's in Sonar is similar to using them in ACID, things are missing! Control parameters are not there.

Lemme tell you, I am an acoustic singer, and it HAS taken me a couple of years to find MY right vst's equation (always experimenting) but nowadays me alone in my studio with Guitar Rig, Broomstick Bass, Groove Agent, Hypersonic, Linplug Saxlab, and more, can create just about anything intended.
Midi-editing is a breeze.

Warp in SX3 is even easier to use than in LIVE which was the thing I most anticipated in SX3.

Cubase simply works.
Most of the issues you guys rattle on about I never experience.
Midi and Audio always sync properly.
When I was a total Cubase noob I was dumb enough to have eternal probs with this but it was ALWAYS a matter of me learning my soundcard and the proper choice of driver (The ASIO NATIVE TO THE CARD!!!!!!!!!!) with the 2ms setting.

Next

USE two monitors!!!!!

It will save your life, and you will never go back.

Seph

www.seph.ca

PS: Having said all that, I'm sure S5 is a great soft, and I admit I have not checked out that latest incarnation yet.
I will if you guys can confirm for me that there are no known issues inherent in having both cubase and sonar on same system in latest releases.
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