Do we really need more than 100 velocity layers?

[Stupid American Pig]

The question is- if you *can* have 127 layers, then why shouldn't you?

Personally I cannot wait until I have enough space to get a Vdrum set + BFD. I think that day is coming soon too I know Im not even close to a good enough drummer to play something that wouldnt let me quantize it.

[chrismuktar]

I think thinks should go down the synful orchestra route. Synth meets sample.

[Lawnmower Of The Damned]

Quantization doesn't hurt the sound as badly as you might think. That hardest part about making drums sound real is getting the velocity layers right, which for most people (Myself included) is almost impossible to do with a midi keyboard. With an e-kit however, it couldn't be more natural.

[herodotus]

I predict it will all come full circle one day and we'll all get back to playing our instruments again

Some of us never stopped.


The hard part of imitating say, a ride cymbal with samples isn't the 'velocities' involved, it is the fact that every time you hit a real cymbal the sound interacts with the sound of the previous hit.

A similar case obtains with drums. When you hit a snare drum, the previous hit will effect the sound to a great degree. A drum head is a freely vibrating oscillator. When you hit it repeatedly, each hit will sound different, because it will interrupt the previous oscillation. A snare has two heads, and they interact in very complex ways, in real time.

Furthermore, when you whack a kick drum, the toms, cymbals and snare will ring just a bit. You can try as much as you want to eliminate this, but the only sure way to do it is to dampen and isolate the drums to a degree that they sound (to some of us at least) lifeless and artificial. I can assure you that none of John Bonhams legendary drum parts were recorded like that.

This 'too-discrete'ness is also what makes it so hard to make a realistic sounding guitar part via samples.

This is not to say sampling is bad. On the contrary, I would love to try out some insanely impossible Dave-Lombardo-on-speed kinds of drum parts on this new BFD module. But samplers, (like humans) have inherent limitations that no amount of velocity layering can overcome.

[Sascha Franck]

Well put, Mr. herodotus.
Guess the only answer to the problem would be physical modeling (as stated before).

Still, the question remains whether anything would be noticeable in a rather crowded mix. For a lot of situations I'd say no - but then there's all the rather minimalistic jazz folks and the likes... but hey, I don't expect them to use any virtual instruments emulating the real deal anyways.

[waiting man]

oh, using sample alternation you can also multiply, in a way, the number of layers. 254, 381 samples and so on

I'm aiming for something like BFD and BFDdeluxe, but right now I'm a happy v-drummer with Reason DrumKits and it does the job, without killing my cpu.
It's programmed very well (velo layers+random alternation) and though I can hear few niggles I'm 10 lightyears away from v-drums internal sounds and stuff with three velo layers.

everybody checked Morgan Agren video demos of DFH vintage? 'cause that's fine stuff. Should give an idea of the fine level reached in the area.
ok, it's a pricey setup of hartmann pads with a programs that rapes your hd and has a consistent price for the average muso...but damn!

[chrismuktar]

i use bfd and it does sound like a real drummer; with meticulous programming it can even have the real groove and flow of a proper drummer. I think there's something missing from the cymbals though.

[safeaim]

Stop complaining, everybody knows that BFD stands for Big f**king Drums, why not actually confirm the meaning of the name by having 127 V.Layers?

[Amberience]

The way I see it, playing a different sample, out of 127 samples, each time you hit a key can only be a good thing.

More control for the user. Sure, limitations are a good thing too, but more control includes the ability to enforce limitations

[geekboy]

I've got BFD free demo, and I agree: The cymbals don't sound right. The built in drum grooves are sort of laughable -- but as it's free, I would never complain to FX.

How hard could it be to record a real drummer playing? If that's what they did for BFD, then their drummer is not that good...

[lion_cub]

The question is- if you *can* have 127 layers, then why shouldn't you?

Personally I cannot wait until I have enough space to get a Vdrum set + BFD. I think that day is coming soon too I know Im not even close to a good enough drummer to play something that wouldnt let me quantize it.

True, but very microsoftesque.

It's true you could get away with low number of layers with certain kinds of drum programming/styles of music but BFD's aim seems to be to recreate as far as possible the situation of a real drum kit in your studio all wonderfully miked up and being played by a real drummer. That is the starting point of the sound. Realism. After that you can fck with it all you like to make it sound like a drum machine (and that's cool of course) but to get close to the sound of a real drum kit you need as many velocity layers as possible.

Where's the science behind this statement?

Have there been any tests to verify these sort of statements ?

Sounds like sales talk to me.

[Funkybot]

Where's the science behind this statement?

Have there been any tests to verify these sort of statements ?

Sounds like sales talk to me.

This one isn't even difficult to prove, nor would it be. Do a snare drum roll with a drumkit that uses very few layers, then compare it to a roll done on a kit that uses many. I doubt anyone would have a hard time hearing the difference.

[BFDrummer]

It's true you could get away with low number of layers with certain kinds of drum programming/styles of music but BFD's aim seems to be to recreate as far as possible the situation of a real drum kit in your studio all wonderfully miked up and being played by a real drummer. That is the starting point of the sound. Realism. After that you can fck with it all you like to make it sound like a drum machine (and that's cool of course) but to get close to the sound of a real drum kit you need as many velocity layers as possible.

Where's the science behind this statement?

Have there been any tests to verify these sort of statements ?

Sounds like sales talk to me.

Hi Lion Cub this is just to let you know we've got some new informaton and prices coming out on various products I see you've expressed an interest in, synth2, Ariesverb, harptime, BFD and so on. You should recieve the details in a day or two so keep your eyes peeled OK! Great!

With regards to BFD, to coincide with the release of BFD Deluxe we're doing a special reduced rate for existing customers like youself of just £250 and also deals on BFD bundled with one of expansion packs so check out the details as they come your way OK ? Great! As I'm sure you're aware BFD has been a great success mainly due to the super realism of the kits. This is down to the best possible equipment and engineers being used to record the drums as well as software's utilisaton of high numbers of velocity layers on all the kit pieces - up to 127 layers in the new DLX! Pretty impressive as I'm sure you'll agree! Absolutely!

Now, I'm going to be in your area next month dealing with some other existing clients down there so what I'll do is I'll pop you down a pack of the BFD Deluxe so you can see just how good this product is yourself and when I'm in your area I'll give you a call and maybe we could hook up for a chat to see how you're getting on with it... like I said we're doing it at a special introductory price at the moment of just £250 so as you can see it's a great offer - Great! Now I'll make sure I put my card in with the invoice so if you have any further questions don't hesitate to give me a call - and I'll mark that invoice for your attention Lion Cub - Ok! Great! well thanks for your order! I'm sure you'll be very impressed with the product - are you working late tonight? ....much work coming in? etc etc

- now THAT is sales talk

But what I was saying in my other post about realism of BFD due to large numbers of velocity layers - that was just the plain bleeding obvious.

[Funkybot]

BFDrummer, are you a George Carlin fan by any chance? That was right up his alley, nice response.

[BFDrummer]

Never heard of him ....

I used to do sales a long time ago - awful job, hated it - don't like to talk about it (seriously! )

...but it did pay for my studio...