Do we really need more than 100 velocity layers?

[mm_FX]

Ok.... I have held off this one for long enough.

Let's get practical for a momemt.

Most drums played in most musical applications are full on. There may be some dynamics but they are gonna be largely variations between soft, medum and loud.. certainly not 127 levels that most people can distinguish. Mostly (let's be honest) is gonna be the drummer hitting the sh*t out of the thing.

What is more important is not the level at which each drum is hit but where it is hit - a snare full central is very different to a snare towards the rim... but these are not 'velocity' based parameters... this is a 'zonal' thing!

Plus (as has been discussed) there's the fact that there are other physical and acoustic forces going on when a drum/cymbal/percussion instrument is hit that is way beyond just sampling a load of different velocities.

Go for 127 velocities by all means but in practice, with clever and intelligent programming - i.e. use of velocity to amplitude, filter cutoff, sample start, envelope attack, etc. - it is possible to create very realistic and usable results with just a handful of samples.

Hi Steve,

Can't agree. Your approach is a good one which was well suited to hardware samplers with not much memory. It can also sound great but it is *one approach*. I use this method all the time too, but it relies on 'real' source material (in my case drum breaks). But you need the raw sounds first!

BFD is all about giving you the most realistic raw material. Why do those classic old drum breaks sound good and unique? Because those drummers played expressively with subtle use of ghost notes etc. Of course the production of those breaks is another factor (BFD is totally unprocessed and raw so it gives you total freedom to process it how you want).

Personally I create breakbeats with BFD (and extra processing), then bounce them and re-chop them and process them with more 'conventional' samplers such as ShortCircuit and GURU. The heavy detail levels in BFD and its expansion packs make this task a hell of a lot more rewarding and make the end result totally awesome.

[gareth_fx]

All ive seen in this thread is a very narrow view of 'drums' everyone is talking about no dynamics , hate to burst the bubble but theres an entire world of music out there that requires subtley and nuance and dynamics.

Writing of a product of as 'bloated' and 'pointless' simple because it fails to fit in with one particular persons rather narrow world view of music is ... how to say this politely.

Somewhat lacking in imagination.

The huge demand for programs like BFD and DKFHS and Scarbee goes a long way to discount these claims that people dont need or desire heavily sampled and massively flexible drum sounds. If people didnt like/use/want these products then they would wither and die.

GFX

*awaits the flame*

[Rock Hardbuns]

*Waits for a fifth FX representative to repeat message.*

[Rock Hardbuns]

"If people didnt like/use/want these products then they would wither and die."

True, but millions cried when Stalin died. I say its wankage and does not do one bit of difference to anyone but the wankers.

[mm_FX]

I think you excellently proved Gareth's point. Thanks!

Writing of a product of as 'bloated' and 'pointless' simple because it fails to fit in with one particular persons rather narrow world view of music is ... how to say this politely.

Somewhat lacking in imagination.

[SKoT_FX]

Puke: So, we'll put you down for the 32-layer install option then, or leave you to your machine-gun-isms (oo, that's asking for flame, hee hee). jokes! jokes!

[Failed Muso]

Like Steve, I've held back on this one till now

Being a drummer for the past 25 years, and also being an avid user of technology, I fell well placed to comment.

I have only heard demo's of BFD and it sounds very good. But I do have to ask the question...do we really think we will ever achieve this "nirvana" that we seem to be striving for ?

Drums, as with all instruments that are as expressive (guitar, brass, woodwind, etc) are dependent on the unique and utterly random interaction of the human being playing them. For decades we have strived to recreate these electronically and although we get closer, we are obviously still some way off, otherwise this thread probably wouldn't be here

I've played all kinds of drums over the years, predominantly acoustic, but a lot of electronic kits too. My current kit, due to space, is a Yamaha DTX, although the V Drums are next on my list. These, IMHO, are the best sounding electronic kits available. Being physically modelled & using the patented REMO mesh heads, these pretty much tick every box. Of course, you are looking at in excess of £4000 for a decent V Drum set up. So, until I win the lottery, I have explored the use of other sounds being triggered by my DTX. The most successful way I have found is hookng my kit up to my Akai S6000 which is then loaded with various drum samples. None of these have exceeded more than half a dozen velocity layers, but with a little "tweak time" I have managed to get some very authentic sounding sounds out of them.

The main difference I guess is my expectation level. At no point do I expect that setup to be as good as a well tuned acoustic kit, especially the cymbals. Yet, in a live environment, this electronic set up performs very well.

IHMO, we will never reach the perfection we seem to crave, purely because of the human element. You can have as many layers as you like but you cannot replicate the human element. 127 Layers will not be enough to accurately do the job because each human can probably render an infinite number of velocities, multiplied by the zonal factor, meaning we will never accurately represent the sound. The same applies to the other instruments I mentioned earlier.

There's nothing wrong with trying to get as close as possible, but at what personal expense ? And also at what expense to the resource host ? I think some of us are spending too much time trying to play "Top Trumps" with tech spec and losing the real point, which is having fun making music

[safeaim]

Are you planning on releasing a midi electronic drumkit (Like V-Drum and its like), with different zone-detection on every pad? Or has that idea ever striked you..?
BFD with a own special electronic drumkit..

[BFDrummer]

Like Steve, I've held back on this one till now

Being a drummer for the past 25 years, and also being an avid user of technology, I fell well placed to comment.

I have only heard demo's of BFD and it sounds very good. But I do have to ask the question...do we really think we will ever achieve this "nirvana" that we seem to be striving for ?

Well, with BFD DLX they seem to be closer to achieving Nirvana due to the use of Albini -gettit? Nirvana ....Albini..... oh...er .... Nevermind!

Drums, as with all instruments that are as expressive (guitar, brass, woodwind, etc) are dependent on the unique and utterly random interaction of the human being playing them. For decades we have strived to recreate these electronically and although we get closer, we are obviously still some way off, otherwise this thread probably wouldn't be here

The man's a genius! (Although I would call it utterly complex or sophisticated, rather than utterly random).

I've played all kinds of drums over the years, predominantly acoustic, but a lot of electronic kits too. My current kit, due to space, is a Yamaha DTX, although the V Drums are next on my list. These, IMHO, are the best sounding electronic kits available. Being physically modelled & using the patented REMO mesh heads, these pretty much tick every box. Of course, you are looking at in excess of £4000 for a decent V Drum set up. So, until I win the lottery, I have explored the use of other sounds being triggered by my DTX. The most successful way I have found is hookng my kit up to my Akai S6000 which is then loaded with various drum samples. None of these have exceeded more than half a dozen velocity layers, but with a little "tweak time" I have managed to get some very authentic sounding sounds out of them.

The main difference I guess is my expectation level. At no point do I expect that setup to be as good as a well tuned acoustic kit, especially the cymbals. Yet, in a live environment, this electronic set up performs very well.

Yes I have played similar setups live (V-drums/ akai Z8 with DFH akai) and it certainly 'does the job' - it's nice to have the stability and no latency of hardware. I totally agree, different expectations - still lots of fun.

IHMO, we will never reach the perfection we seem to crave, purely because of the human element. You can have as many layers as you like but you cannot replicate the human element. 127 Layers will not be enough to accurately do the job because each human can probably render an infinite number of velocities, multiplied by the zonal factor, meaning we will never accurately represent the sound. The same applies to the other instruments I mentioned earlier.

Um... I thought it was up to us drummers to add the human element ie in our compositions. BFD's job is surely to *express* this. More samples is like a wider vocabulary - hence, more likely to find the best fitting word - therefore better translation/interpretation of drummers intentions.

There seems to be this assumption that it is FX are arrogantly declaring BFD to be PERFECTION incarnate - with Skot declaring, one hand on hip and kissing his fingers "mmmmwwwwaaa! at laast eet is created! ....it eez a masterpeees 128 layers! no one will ever know la difference now betwen it and ze real sing! aah am a god!"

I thought they were just doing the best possible job with current technology... and enjoying the results ........along with all the users *without* chips on their shoulders

There's nothing wrong with trying to get as close as possible,

oh good

but at what personal expense ?

Eh? BFD does not require orgon donation to work - it's just £170 FFS!! (it's not compulsory either)

And also at what expense to the resource host ?

Oh give it a rest, mate! you sound like an old lady writting letters to the the parish newsletter...

I think some of us are spending too much time trying to play "Top Trumps" with tech spec and losing the real point, which is having fun making music

Oh the irony!.... ..... if only you knew just how much fun you could be having!

[Failed Muso]

BFDrummer, what is your whole point ?

I am beginning to believe that you are either on the BFD payroll, or you are simply trying to justify (unecessarily) your purchase of the said product. Why else would someone bang on about a product unless they had a vested interest in it or were sad enough to believe anyone cared how much they loved it and wanted it's babies ?

Your constant evangelising about BFD is extremely tedious and very boring. And your patronising tone is bang out of order.

Sure, you have BFD and you love it to the point of masturbating over it. I'm glad you like it so much. Well done you.

Now give it a bleedin' rest why don't you !

***Let The Flames Begin***

[BFDrummer]

Fair point!

So sorry - just killing time really! (been doing boring 'admin' tasks on my 'puter last couple of days) .....thought I'd properly dive into KVR land - just to see what it feels like, I suppose - yes I get carried away, it's true ..... although I do think what i have said is about right, I am fully aware of the ridiculousness of my posts ...er... it was, like, kind of part of my point ....

p.s. Yes I'm a big fan of BFD as you can probably tell - I'm saving up for it - hope to get it by next year sometime - can't wait!

[Angus_FX]

"mmmmwwwwaaa! at laast eet is created! ....it eez a masterpeees 128 layers! no one will ever know la difference now betwen it and ze real sing! aah am a god!"

That's an uncannily accurate impression of SKoT after one redbull too many

[mm_FX]

I didn't think such a subject could elicit such passionate responses I think that with anything it totally depends on what you're doing and how you want to achieve it. You may not want or need it. I have just as much respect for drums coming out of an SP1200 or EnergyXT as long as it's done right. Expression goes way beyond velocity layers. BFD and the other libraries like DFHS/Scarbee just give you some nice raw material to work with and a nice plugin to control it.. if you don't need it then there's nothing wrong with that.

I've seen enough drummers, many of whom use electronic triggers, who are sick of the standard variety of sampled/modelled drums. When they hear BFD they are often moved enough to buy new hardware to run it at low latencies. Call that wankerism if you like but these are musicians who earn a living out of what they do, and they love doing it. I know of enough people using it for breakbeats and stuff to know it isn't just 'wanker musos' who are using it. But they all know as well as we do that it's not a substitute for real drums - it's just the nearest thing if you can't afford nice drums, a nice room, nice mics, nice pre's and nice converters. It's not the be all and end all - the drummers are not going to stop playing real drums, and the crate diggers are not going to stop crate digging. It's just another tool to get things done, and offers a quality/ease of use that goes beyond what's been possible before.

[Stupid American Pig]

As soon as I move into this haouse and get some cash together, I plan on getting an electronic kit plus BFD- I have lingered forever because I was concerned about the amount of sound I had to give up for electronic kits. Now with BFD, it isnt a problem. BFD + electronic kit = way more/better possibilities than acoustic drums

[Rock Hardbuns]

Of course it's all subjective. Everything about music is subjective. We are not discussing the epistemic foundations of naturalism, just coughing up opinions.