Do we really need more than 100 velocity layers?

[hollowsun]

Is "omeopathic" actually a word ??

No! Homeopathic is but...... "omeopathic"????

Hey people - if 127 velocity layers for a drum sound (or whatever) floats your boat, go for it and enjoy it - I have absolutely no problem at all but I am reminded of the Hans Christian Anderson tale of 'The Emporer's New Clothes' (likewise for recording full level bass samples at 24-bit/96kHz... come on!).

My perspective doesn't come from using hardware samplers with limited memory and velocity zones (although that is a good teacher with regard to sample 'economy', a skill that is rapidly declining in these 'bloatware' days) - it comes from almost 20 years of developing professional sound library and an inate knowledge of how players... ermmm... play. In the case of drums (unless you're doing Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa or Brand X mock-ups) that is usually 'full-on'. Yes, there are 'ghost' drops and subtle flams and pressed rolls, etc., but most of the time in most musical applications, it's 100% 'whack' to get yerself heard and have maximum impact.

Let's face it, in the vast majority of today's music, there is little space for subtlety especially when the final result is gonna be compressed for maximum level at the mastering stage and/or encoded for MP3 (to be heard on tiny earphones) or played on FM radio with a highly compressed (at the transmitter), 15kHz bandwidth! Even on CD on an 'average' hi-fi system, is yer average listener gonna buy some music just coz the drum samples have 127 velocity levels? I doubt it!

It might be also pertinent that some of the best records have been made with 8-bit drum machines with a velocity range of 3 - off/medium/full!

As I said before, no 'diss' or criticism intended of the new BFD offering and if you feel that your music will benefit from such detail, then put your hands in your pocket and buy it. I, for one (given my long experience), am not convinced. Maybe that's just me though!!!

But.... good luck to all at FX-Expansion with this new library and more power to your elbow. Go for it and be successful. I am sure you will be.

Steve

[griels]

In the case of drums (unless you're doing Buddy Rich, Gene Krupa or Brand X mock-ups) that is usually 'full-on'.

You rang, m'lord?

Yes, there are 'ghost' drops and subtle flams and pressed rolls, etc., but most of the time in most musical applications, it's 100% 'whack' to get yerself heard and have maximum impact.

Those ghost notes are what make the groove quite often for me. And for fills and rolls, the more layers the better. I've heard some awful programmed breakbeats where all the ghost notes and rolls sound like machine guns.

Anyway, no offence taken... It's quite possible to make a damn funky groove with just single layer samples... I've heard many that beat the pants off badly programmed gazillion layer breaks.

[Sascha Franck]

As so often, I have to agree with Steve.
As he pointed out, loads of velocity layers usually are only making sense on occasions where you'd still record a real drumset.

I've been through it more than once on recording situations (with real drummers doing the job) - "Oh, sorry, we need to redo this take because there's some softer snare hits". The snare simply was supposed to sound 1:1 identical on each hit. Ok, there's a few ghost notes, but you wouldn't be able to tell whether they were a result of 50 "layers" or just one single sound as soon as everything else has been mixed in.

What I *do* think is making a big difference in those BFD drums however are the overhead and room mics.

And then, as herodotus allready said, you could even have 1000 velocity layers and they still wouldn't be able to emulate an allready ringing cymbal being hit again.

[androidlove]

i use 4 layers at most on drums and ppl have asked about my drummer

[Gregjazz]

i use 4 layers at most on drums and ppl have asked about my drummer

Yeah, a lot of it has to do with how good you are at sequencing drums... you could have amazing drum samples and still sound mechanical and unrealistic in that sense.

Personally I like the more velocity layers so I can get more variation when the drums are played. For example, in a backbeat the snare could sound just a little different each time. The drums sound more alive that way.

I know there are some drummers who practice long and hard to get the same exact sound from their snare and stuff...

[BFDrummer]

Let's face it, in the vast majority of today's music, there is little space for subtlety especially when the final result is gonna be compressed for maximum level at the mastering stage and/or encoded for MP3 (to be heard on tiny earphones) or played on FM radio with a highly compressed (at the transmitter), 15kHz bandwidth! Even on CD on an 'average' hi-fi system, is yer average listener gonna buy some music just coz the drum samples have 127 velocity levels? I doubt it!

With all this compression and so on being applied to today's music I suppose you could just as easily say there's MORE to be gained by writing with sublety of expression in the first place. If the dynamics are going to be squashed to a pancake then the multi layered sound is still going to have its differing tonal qualities as a means of expressing the (now totally squashed) dynamics of the original performance.

Being aware of the technology of the equipment your music is going to be broadcast from/ played on is a good thing definately, but that's a bit different from not bothering to play with any expression beyond a certain point, which is what you seem to be suggesting. Likewise playing less detailed music just because you think the listening public can't hear properly is a bit of an odd way of looking at things IMHO. Hearing is a very fluid sense - if we hear crap sounding music all day long then yes we will have crap hearing, likewise the opposite! The better your hearing becomes the less tollerant you are of 'fake sounds'.

Also old wireless sets, budget HiFi's, iPods, (but maybe not minidisc players ) desktop mini speakers, CD, FM, MP3 ... they are all capable of expressing detailed music, they'll all sound different and biased, sure.... actually I'd say the more budget/consumer/minature the player is the less capable it will for playing back 'full on' music, all played at 11.

It might be also pertinent that some of the best records have been made with 8-bit drum machines with a velocity range of 3 - off/medium/full!

True .....I would say though that synths and drum machines often play on the fact that they sound NEW and EXOTIC - they kind of use this *nature* of their sound *as the expression* rather than having any actual 'dynamic-tonal' expression (the thing real instruments are so good at - and what BFD is emulating).

So, in a way, once we all get used to (bored with) the synth/drum machine sound it starts to loose its ability to be so expressive. I guess it's why synth/drum machine players are always on the look out for new sounds whereas violin players are always trying to improve their expressive technique.

So really it's two completely diffeerent things. And before anyone says anything there's no implied judgement there. I like/dislike all music styles equally.

And seeing as how you mentioned the kind of production techniques used at the moment - a big factor I think is producers trying to give some of these old and dynamically unexpressive sounds a new lease of life by compressing them to kingdom come and playing them harder, faster and more disjointedly, all really just ways of keeping our attention.

I guess BFD is just using the technology to go in the other direction - to put back some real dynamic- tonal expressive detail.

Just some thoughts -I hope no one finds them too offensive

[waiting man]

Is that an assumption or statement of fact ?

Is "omeopathic" actually a word ??
What is an omeopathic percentage ?

Interacting Resonators ?
Network of delays ?

Is it me or just a poor Babelfish translation ?

At the end of the day, who really cares about what goes on in the box, so long as the resultant sounds are what we are looking for as a useable musical tool for our personal compositions.

torpedo, my mistake. the word is written without "h" in italian, and surely it's a word I don't need that much. funny you get excited with that.

Immense knowledge on the awful gated snare era (well remembered by most drummers with fear/pain/horror) and shooting for the Nth time sentences like "linndrum had x/xxx of the ramspace..." is useful, thanx.
please, kill this thread like the other one on the Rhodes multisample.

if you feel that your music will benefit from such detail, then put your hands in your pocket and buy it. I, for one (given my long experience), am not convinced. Maybe that's just me though!!!

But.... good luck to all at FX-Expansion with this new library and more power to your elbow. Go for it and be successful. I am sure you will be.

(george, put some echo on the last sentence, I want it dramatic!)

[Failed Muso]

torpedo, my mistake

??

Ok, so let's ignore the silent H (being Italian myself, I can understand this) but what is Homeopathic percentage ??? And how does it relate to this discussion ?

Immense knowledge on the awful gated snare era (well remembered by most drummers with fear/pain/horror) and shooting for the Nth time sentences like "linndrum had x/xxx of the ramspace..." is useful, thanx.

Again, ???

Listen to any Linn Drum sequence programmed by Prince and you will soon realise that 127 layers does not make your playing funky. It's the skill of an expert rhythmist who has a deep knowledge of "the groove". Therefore it's mention is relevant to demonstrate the "Emperors Clothes" analogy

[BFDrummer]

Ok, so let's ignore the silent H (being Italian myself, I can understand this) but what is Homeopathic percentage ??? And how does it relate to this discussion ?

As Homeopathic remedies are diluted over and over so they are tiny weeny percentages in a solution guess he means there isn't much cosm-ing going on inside a v-drums.

It's true I think, I had a look inside mine with a torch and I couldn't see much in there at all.

[Failed Muso]

I guess so

[Sascha Franck]

To me, it all comes down to a few things:

What sort of music am I doing? Do I need high realism from sampled instruments?
The answer is: Sometimes I do (or want, whatever...). But, would I actually use programmed drums in case I needed realism? Most likely I won't.
Ok, for us mere hobbyists, there's hardly a chance of recording a real drummer, but then, as a hobbyist, do I really need 100% realistic drums?

Then there's demo purposes. Of course it'd be cool if things were as close to the real deal as possible. But then, usually no average listener (not even your humble A&R dude) cares about realistic cymbals and the likes.

There's pop stuff as well. In that case, you usually want real drummers to sound as if the groove has been programmed.

And there's stuff that you want to sound as if it was programmed. Again, 100% realism isn't required.

And finally there's drummers playing trigger sets.
Yes, for those the greatest possible realism might be quite something.

Anyways, IMO the amont of people who *truly* need absolutely realistic sounding programmed drums is very small.
Sure, it doesn't hurt to have them anyways, yet, for me it wouldn't change much in my way of working.

[waiting man]

Listen to any Linn Drum sequence programmed by Prince and you will soon realise that 127 layers does not make your playing funky

watch the any of the M.Agren DFHV videodemos and you will soon realize that Linndrums are another story.
and though respecting & loving Prince, I find Mr.Wonder stuff (with real drums) muuuch funkier. again, another story.

oh, and Cosm is whatever Roland wants it to be. V-Drums may be full of Cosm, but they sound "almost" like crappy 4-5 layers multis.

homeopathic is intended as "ridiculous, uneffective percentage".

edit: in the meanwhile, and without BSing, Sascha got to the point.

[Sascha Franck]

oh, and Cosm is whatever Roland wants it to be. V-Drums may be full of Cosm, but they sound "almost" like crappy 4-5 layers multis.

I totally agree on that one.
Their COSM amp technology is just as bad. Even the cheapest VAmp is beating the shit out of any Roland thingies.

[Failed Muso]

And to think, all I said was that V Drums use COSM. I never commented on how good or bad they were

[BFDrummer]

knock knock

who's there?

cosm

cosm who?

cosm not sure v-drums sound very realistic