Hartmann R.I.P

[talynidm]

Colonel Flashback
KVRist- profile
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Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:45 am reply with quote

talynidm wrote:
As far as I understand the updates of the software were not that BUGGY.


afaik there never have been any updates...

I'm not sure what afaik means, so I'll ignore it.
Perhaps what I was thinking about was the fact that they offered MODEL MAKER to the VS users.

[jens]

I'm not sure what afaik means, so I'll ignore it.

As Far As I Know

[emdot_ambient]

Frankly, I don't find it shocking, odd or unexpected to see them go down. From everything I ever read about their products and marketing tactics, they seemed like just the kind of company to go bust early. Their products were very high priced, reportedly unstable and I'm not really sure how ground breaking their technology was (I've read that much of what made them sound good were the FX). On top of all that, their marketing claims were nothing short of hyperbole.

The combination of high price and fickle product quality is a dangerous and volatile combination.

LOL. You 'read' that what made their products sound good were the effects? Thanks for posting that information.

Yeah, in Sound On Sound's review of it when it first hit the store.

etc.

And you read the SOS review of the VS? that's just so ridiculous, commenting on how a synth sounds when you've never heard it or played it. You don't know shit.

I never said I knew shit, I only said what I had read, which apparently you didn't bother to do with my original post.

If you love it and you think it's unique, fine. All I'm saying is that they talked a big talk, and yet from what I've read they delivered a product that was buggy and underdeveloped at an extremely high price. To me, that says they're at risk of going under.

[emdot_ambient]

Just always amused about how people can comment so knowledgeably from mp3's. But I appreciate the jumping on the bandwagon impulse...

And again, my intent wasn't to give the definitive news on whether the VS is the bomb or not. My initial comments were strictly about Hartmann's commerical viability (high price, rumored instability and rumored under-delivering on sound = danger from a survivability standpoint, especially for a small developer). The SOS post was in response to someone's question about a comment I had made. In fact, I didn't want it to sound like I was the one accusing them of not delivering on sound quality, therefore I provided my source material.

I understand that you lover your VS and are emotionally attached to it, I'm the same way about my old Ensoniq EPS, which as far as raw sound quality goes, is crap. But you have to admit, coming out with the VS as their first synth was very risky from a business point of view.

[talynidm]

Author Topic: What's up with Hartmann - Neuron?!?!?
nj
KVRer- profile
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 7:13 pm reply with quote

Yeah mine arrived this morning!! (from thomann).
Probably the best £100 i've spent on a softsynth...EVER!!

If hartmann is indeed out of buisiness this might be a mute point,...BUT,...

Are the ones from THOMAN upgradeable????

I know the ones from musicstore are not,

But if the ones from THOMAN are free to download model maker, does anyone have a link to THOMAN????

[talynidm]

jens
KVRAF- profile
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- www Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:22 am reply with quote

talynidm wrote:

I'm not sure what afaik means, so I'll ignore it.



As Far As I Know



ok, new to me.

[meeks]

What a wild story...but the suppliers did the right thing and had every right too. Nueron could have saved this rather quickly with a group buy or lowering it to a reasonable price ($150)...lets face it..people who but VSTs are 90% flat broke and lying to the wife on exactly how much thier spending on VSTs

$895(or whatever)....no, especially when every mag, not just SOS, slammed it. If I paid that much for software it had better sound, and feel, as tingely as a rim job if not better.

[jens]

jens
KVRAF

yeah, still KVRAV - you'd think I should have received an order of honour or something by now but I still haven't even got a lousy avatar... - something tells me Ben doesn't like me...

[droolmaster0]

What a wild story...but the suppliers did the right thing and had every right too. Nueron could have saved this rather quickly with a group buy or lowering it to a reasonable price ($150)...lets face it..people who but VSTs are 90% flat broke and lying to the wife on exactly how much thier spending on VSTs

$895(or whatever)....no, especially when every mag, not just SOS, slammed it. If I paid that much for software it had better sound, and feel, as tingely as a rim job if not better.

No (again) - SOS praised the vs. They slammed an early version of the keyboard. I also believe that it is totally false that "every " mag slammed any version of the Neuron. But hell - you're one hell of a bandwagon jumper.

You know, someone accused me of being emotionally attached to my Neuron. Nah. Not at all. I've tried lots of synths. This one is great. It had serious flaws. I was aware of them before I went in. What I think is ridiculous is how freely people like to jump on the anti-Neuron, anti-Hartmann bandwagon without having the slightest clue as to what they're talking about.

I'm no Hartmann defender. The company was arrogant, they didn't communicate with users, and in a sense they got what they deserved. Obviously, pricing the Neuron where they did wasn't a good commercial move. But, no - there intended market wasn't the people who can't afford $150 software. Probably their intended market was more towards people who couldn't afford the keyboard, but could afford synths like Vaz, or Reaktor.

There is no way this software, with the Nuke (which is quite solid and nice) could have been priced at $150, imo. Which isn't to say that $899 wasn't way too high either.

[emdot_ambient]

What a wild story...but the suppliers did the right thing and had every right too. Nueron could have saved this rather quickly with a group buy or lowering it to a reasonable price ($150)...lets face it..people who but VSTs are 90% flat broke and lying to the wife on exactly how much thier spending on VSTs...

No (again) - SOS praised the vs. They slammed an early version of the keyboard...

Yeah, the quote I gave was on the hardware version. I meant to put that in as a caviat but forgot to.

...someone accused me of being emotionally attached to my Neuron. Nah. Not at all... What I think is ridiculous is how freely people like to jump on the anti-Neuron, anti-Hartmann bandwagon without having the slightest clue as to what they're talking about.

Sounds like you are just by pouncing on anyone who says it wasn't worth the price. And if you notice, meeks didn't say anything anti-Neuron or anti-Hartmann other than to say their products were overpriced. Who are you to tell anyone what a synth is worth to them?

I'm no Hartmann defender. The company was arrogant, they didn't communicate with users, and in a sense they got what they deserved. Obviously, pricing the Neuron where they did wasn't a good commercial move.

Which is what most of the people here have been saying, including meeks. Now am I to understand you're jumping on the bandwagon of anti-Neuron anti-Hartmann sentiment?

...there intended market wasn't the people who can't afford $150 software. Probably their intended market was more towards people who couldn't afford the keyboard, but could afford synths like Vaz, or Reaktor.

Then they should have priced it like Vaz or Reaktor, which would still be way under $900. That's more the price of NI Komplete. And anyway, I think even that for the VS is overpriced. The sounds I've heard from it aren't all that unique. No, nothing does EXACTLY the same thing, and the hardware controller makes it sweet from a live control aspect, but $900? No way. I'd much rather spend just a little more and get a Receptor. That would be more useful from a live perfomance viewpoint. Face it, this is a crowded, tough as hell market and Hartmann maintained a pricing scheme more in line with hardware synths than software synths.

But I agree that the software/hardware combo could not have really come in at $150 and made a profit. $400 would probably be more like it but I don't know shit, so you don't have to go telling me that again.

[meeks]

What a wild story...but the suppliers did the right thing and had every right too. Nueron could have saved this rather quickly with a group buy or lowering it to a reasonable price ($150)...lets face it..people who but VSTs are 90% flat broke and lying to the wife on exactly how much thier spending on VSTs

$895(or whatever)....no, especially when every mag, not just SOS, slammed it. If I paid that much for software it had better sound, and feel, as tingely as a rim job if not better.

No (again) - SOS praised the vs. They slammed an early version of the keyboard. I also believe that it is totally false that "every " mag slammed any version of the Neuron. But hell - you're one hell of a bandwagon jumper.

You know, someone accused me of being emotionally attached to my Neuron. Nah. Not at all. I've tried lots of synths. This one is great. It had serious flaws. I was aware of them before I went in. What I think is ridiculous is how freely people like to jump on the anti-Neuron, anti-Hartmann bandwagon without having the slightest clue as to what they're talking about.

I'm no Hartmann defender. The company was arrogant, they didn't communicate with users, and in a sense they got what they deserved. Obviously, pricing the Neuron where they did wasn't a good commercial move. But, no - there intended market wasn't the people who can't afford $150 software. Probably their intended market was more towards people who couldn't afford the keyboard, but could afford synths like Vaz, or Reaktor.

There is no way this software, with the Nuke (which is quite solid and nice) could have been priced at $150, imo. Which isn't to say that $899 wasn't way too high either.

Bandwagoning since March 1st

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... ks+hartman

I guess that makes it a bluesgrass campaign....

where were you?

In all, I'm not knocking it, don't get me wrong...I appreciate anything that makes noise (i.e. commodor 64), I just wish that they didn't price it out og the ballpark and offered one without the dongle for pricing reasons. That's all, no attack on you or your stance...you were lucky enough to have it...I'll never get the chane to try it, they made that reality, not me. I wish I could change that, but I'll be throwing money elsewhere for a larger diversity of equipment/synths/samples/effects etc....its group buy season you know!


Edit: I still love my Casio-VL!!!(had to throw that in there!

[droolmaster0]

What a wild story...but the suppliers did the right thing and had every right too. Nueron could have saved this rather quickly with a group buy or lowering it to a reasonable price ($150)...lets face it..people who but VSTs are 90% flat broke and lying to the wife on exactly how much thier spending on VSTs...

No (again) - SOS praised the vs. They slammed an early version of the keyboard...

Yeah, the quote I gave was on the hardware version. I meant to put that in as a caviat but forgot to.

...someone accused me of being emotionally attached to my Neuron. Nah. Not at all... What I think is ridiculous is how freely people like to jump on the anti-Neuron, anti-Hartmann bandwagon without having the slightest clue as to what they're talking about.

Sounds like you are just by pouncing on anyone who says it wasn't worth the price. And if you notice, meeks didn't say anything anti-Neuron or anti-Hartmann other than to say their products were overpriced. Who are you to tell anyone what a synth is worth to them?

I'm no Hartmann defender. The company was arrogant, they didn't communicate with users, and in a sense they got what they deserved. Obviously, pricing the Neuron where they did wasn't a good commercial move.

Which is what most of the people here have been saying, including meeks. Now am I to understand you're jumping on the bandwagon of anti-Neuron anti-Hartmann sentiment?

...there intended market wasn't the people who can't afford $150 software. Probably their intended market was more towards people who couldn't afford the keyboard, but could afford synths like Vaz, or Reaktor.

Then they should have priced it like Vaz or Reaktor, which would still be way under $900. That's more the price of NI Komplete. And anyway, I think even that for the VS is overpriced. The sounds I've heard from it aren't all that unique. No, nothing does EXACTLY the same thing, and the hardware controller makes it sweet from a live control aspect, but $900? No way. I'd much rather spend just a little more and get a Receptor. That would be more useful from a live perfomance viewpoint. Face it, this is a crowded, tough as hell market and Hartmann maintained a pricing scheme more in line with hardware synths than software synths.

But I agree that the software/hardware combo could not have really come in at $150 and made a profit. $400 would probably be more like it but I don't know shit, so you don't have to go telling me that again.

If you want to insist that because I am annoyed by people who don't know anything about the synth, the reviews of it or its history, but post anyway just to hear themselves talk, that I am emotionally attached to the synth, go ahead. That's a judgement call on your part.

As far as the sounds not being unique - well, what are you basing that on? People who have gotten into the Neuron would say otherwise. The experience of playing the Neuron is rather unique. It's not so much an instantaneous sound, but the transitions between them. It absolutely kills the vsynth. But, hell, you won't be convinced because, what - you've heard mp3's. Ok, I confess, you're an expert.

We agree - the price should have been in the Reaktor ballpark - yes - it does less, but it comes with hardware. Ultimately it comes down to whether at that price, people do find its capabilities unique. I do think that there are a pretty good number of people who have actually used the keyboard and the vs who would agree with my assessment. But, if you don't like what it does, or the type of sound it produces, buy Absynth and post about how the VS is a piece of shit. Sure - if you want something that is 'useful' as far as playing lots of vst's (but not some very good ones - I won't spend my money on one) - obviously you don't want a vs. I"m not sure where that was coming from.

[droolmaster0]

What a wild story...but the suppliers did the right thing and had every right too. Nueron could have saved this rather quickly with a group buy or lowering it to a reasonable price ($150)...lets face it..people who but VSTs are 90% flat broke and lying to the wife on exactly how much thier spending on VSTs

$895(or whatever)....no, especially when every mag, not just SOS, slammed it. If I paid that much for software it had better sound, and feel, as tingely as a rim job if not better.

No (again) - SOS praised the vs. They slammed an early version of the keyboard. I also believe that it is totally false that "every " mag slammed any version of the Neuron. But hell - you're one hell of a bandwagon jumper.

You know, someone accused me of being emotionally attached to my Neuron. Nah. Not at all. I've tried lots of synths. This one is great. It had serious flaws. I was aware of them before I went in. What I think is ridiculous is how freely people like to jump on the anti-Neuron, anti-Hartmann bandwagon without having the slightest clue as to what they're talking about.

I'm no Hartmann defender. The company was arrogant, they didn't communicate with users, and in a sense they got what they deserved. Obviously, pricing the Neuron where they did wasn't a good commercial move. But, no - there intended market wasn't the people who can't afford $150 software. Probably their intended market was more towards people who couldn't afford the keyboard, but could afford synths like Vaz, or Reaktor.

There is no way this software, with the Nuke (which is quite solid and nice) could have been priced at $150, imo. Which isn't to say that $899 wasn't way too high either.

Bandwagoning since March 1st

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... ks+hartman

I guess that makes it a bluesgrass campaign....

where were you?

In all, I'm not knocking it, don't get me wrong...I appreciate anything that makes noise (i.e. commodor 64), I just wish that they didn't price it out og the ballpark and offered one without the dongle for pricing reasons. That's all, no attack on you or your stance...you were lucky enough to have it...I'll never get the chane to try it, they made that reality, not me. I wish I could change that, but I'll be throwing money elsewhere for a larger diversity of equipment/synths/samples/effects etc....its group buy season you know!


Edit: I still love my Casio-VL!!!(had to throw that in there!

Where was I? I don't remember. I don't think I had mine yet. I've gotten to know Scott Solida, who wrote that review, and I think that he has much integrity and intelligence. However, he wrote that review after failing (for whatever reason - it is not the usual experience) to get the Neuron pretty much to work at all, and to get cooperation from Hartmann (whose support person around that time was kind of a jerk). Obviously, my 'review' of the Neuron is NOT from the vantage point of someone who couldn't get it to work. I got mine to work, on a cheap emachines computer, and I got it to work with every host I tried it with (about 5 of them). I have never crashed with it. The only problem I've had is that there is a conflict with the Samplitude dongle so that (I forget the exact details), sometimes the vs doesn't show up in the instruments list.

This is not a defense of the fact that the synth had problems - it did, though you'd think from that review that it simply didn't work. It did, and the majority of users ran it without problems. The SOS review came from someone who didn't have problems, and so could be taken for a slightly more objective view of the actual capabilities of the synth.

[drinelli]

May I come with a comment, don`t spank me if someone suggested this before, if I would read it all, it might not be of interest any more.

But the only solution as I see it is that Hartman released it without the controller, as a download at a fair price 200$ or so, or at at least as a Cd-r, that way they would sell a lot more than now, without big manufacturing cost added. If they did I know I would buy it (right after christmas that is ), and that would maybe be a way for them to afford updating the thing. And maybe they should try some other small devellopers to help them with it, though i am not quite shure who gave them theese problems in the first place.

[drinelli]

Oh Oh, looks as if i came into a heatet debate.