Hi all,
Any of u wrote music scores for films or any other videos before? i'm very new at this. I've done a few short films and documentaries but i think i have a lot to improve on. What are your advice? Do u usually come up with a theme first and repeat it many times with different variation?
How do u sync your music to the film? How long do u usually spend on a short film, say... about 45 minutes film?
Movie scoring
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- KVRist
- 78 posts since 9 Nov, 2004
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- KVRian
- 1202 posts since 8 May, 2003 from Munich
I recon you'll probably want to develop the themes for the key people/places/events first, then decide how you want to let these themes interact with one another based on the picture.
A simplified example would be you have a good guy and a bad guy. Whenever they appear they get their own theme, adapted to the situation the characters are in at that moment. When the two meet you'd have your two themes interact, telling the story happening on the screen in music.
In general you'd decide (during the spotting, or even when reading the script without having seen anything yet) whom or what to assign their own themes to, what instrumentation to use to support the character or situation you're complementing with music. You can do this very subtly, depending on what the situation calls for. E.g. you wouldn't want to give away the story by having a full blown evil sounding cue the first time you see the person who - much later in the picture - turns out to be a/the bad guy. You'll want to play the audience and not give these things away before they happen. When the character's action's/dialogue start to slightly cause doubt in the audience whether or not he/she has a hidden agenda, you can very sutbly support that emotion in the music.. but as with the question how much music to use, less is in general way more effective.
When you use too much music, or the music is too clumsy in it's attempt to support but not overpower the situation portrayed in the picture, it stops working and pulls the audience out of the picture.
just some thoughts
Markus
A simplified example would be you have a good guy and a bad guy. Whenever they appear they get their own theme, adapted to the situation the characters are in at that moment. When the two meet you'd have your two themes interact, telling the story happening on the screen in music.
In general you'd decide (during the spotting, or even when reading the script without having seen anything yet) whom or what to assign their own themes to, what instrumentation to use to support the character or situation you're complementing with music. You can do this very subtly, depending on what the situation calls for. E.g. you wouldn't want to give away the story by having a full blown evil sounding cue the first time you see the person who - much later in the picture - turns out to be a/the bad guy. You'll want to play the audience and not give these things away before they happen. When the character's action's/dialogue start to slightly cause doubt in the audience whether or not he/she has a hidden agenda, you can very sutbly support that emotion in the music.. but as with the question how much music to use, less is in general way more effective.
When you use too much music, or the music is too clumsy in it's attempt to support but not overpower the situation portrayed in the picture, it stops working and pulls the audience out of the picture.
just some thoughts
Markus
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- KVRAF
- 3420 posts since 26 Mar, 2002 from london
For Star Wars, yes, but anything else, hmmm. . .
I've never created scores but I wouldn't approach it with any rules in mind.
I've never created scores but I wouldn't approach it with any rules in mind.
Every day takes figuring out all over again how to f#ckin’ live.
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- KVRAF
- 2401 posts since 29 Dec, 2002 from In the dark
Hi
You will have to tell us more. Your questions are very wide.
What kind of music do you do? What do you use i.e. synths, libraries etc?
I have done a few shorts. Longest project was a 20 minute indie film. I do mainly orchestral with added guitars and whatever. I have done one where the producer wanted a theme pop/rock style song with vocals.
It all depends on what the producer, or more likely, the director wants. Usually you will have a session with him to "spot" the music, i.e. decide what must go where and in what style. By absence of that, at least find out from him or your sound editor all those things you asked us.
I like themes and I have worked on one project where the director wanted themes for each scene. The idea was that each time a certain scene shows the theme must evolve a bit further, until it becomes a full blown theme. That is typically an epic style score. John Williams, Howard Shore etc do this very well.
In most cases the directors will be happy with only one theme and most of the time just background mood music.
Timewise it is impossible to say how much I spend. Industry standard being quoted by many is 3 minutes per day. So, if you have a 40 minute score you should spend 2 weeks fulltime on it. That only really works if you are doing this full time, i.e. 10 hours or more per day and you have a team of orchestrators and a seperate recording and mixing team. Without those luxuries you could spend up to 1 week on that 3 minutes. I have once done one score of about 6 minutes in a single evening of about 4 to 6 hours. It is amazing what one can do given a tight deadline.
You will have to tell us more. Your questions are very wide.
What kind of music do you do? What do you use i.e. synths, libraries etc?
I have done a few shorts. Longest project was a 20 minute indie film. I do mainly orchestral with added guitars and whatever. I have done one where the producer wanted a theme pop/rock style song with vocals.
It all depends on what the producer, or more likely, the director wants. Usually you will have a session with him to "spot" the music, i.e. decide what must go where and in what style. By absence of that, at least find out from him or your sound editor all those things you asked us.
I like themes and I have worked on one project where the director wanted themes for each scene. The idea was that each time a certain scene shows the theme must evolve a bit further, until it becomes a full blown theme. That is typically an epic style score. John Williams, Howard Shore etc do this very well.
In most cases the directors will be happy with only one theme and most of the time just background mood music.
Timewise it is impossible to say how much I spend. Industry standard being quoted by many is 3 minutes per day. So, if you have a 40 minute score you should spend 2 weeks fulltime on it. That only really works if you are doing this full time, i.e. 10 hours or more per day and you have a team of orchestrators and a seperate recording and mixing team. Without those luxuries you could spend up to 1 week on that 3 minutes. I have once done one score of about 6 minutes in a single evening of about 4 to 6 hours. It is amazing what one can do given a tight deadline.
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- KVRian
- 1202 posts since 8 May, 2003 from Munich
This was to explain the issue of too much & too early & mickeymousing vs just right and subtle enough to work.xRAVENx wrote:A simplified example (...)
Obviously you have no good guys and no bad guys per se in a romantic comedy. But what you have is themes for emotions, for situations or for places, which form a recognizable structure.
And obviously it's not all themes, but these are the cornerstones outlining a structure, then where necessary underscore - and hopefully not too much of it. What you often see with your average tv production and unfortunately also some features is the overuse of music.
Hope it's getting the point across now.
best
Markus
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 78 posts since 9 Nov, 2004
i have this problem with my current project. the short indie film has minimal conversation or sound effects. and it's a very slow moving film. it's really hard to add music to fit into such scene.
by the way, in general, how do u charge the producer for the music u make? do u go by minutes of music? or a package of the entire film.
by the way, in general, how do u charge the producer for the music u make? do u go by minutes of music? or a package of the entire film.
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- KVRian
- 1214 posts since 10 Aug, 2005
Ah, this topic is too broad for a simple post on a forum, baring in mind that one director usually will want a completely different approach to another director. I've just finished reading an enlightening book called "Complete Guide To Film Scoring" as printed by Berklee Press. It's opened my eyes more on what it is to be a film composer.
"a film composer is a problem solver, perhaps more so then a musician. If you solve problems well then you will be asked to do it again".
"a film composer is a problem solver, perhaps more so then a musician. If you solve problems well then you will be asked to do it again".
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- KVRAF
- 2401 posts since 29 Dec, 2002 from In the dark
Doing music where there is no dialogue is a lot easier than with dialog. I have not seen any handbook saying how it must be done, but just generally, I worked out a few things that may serve as tips:
1. If scoring for dialogue, keep the detail to the minimum to avoid distracting from the dialogue, i.e. pad sounds and slow movement in strings.
2. Reserve melodic lines for either in-between dialogue or for no-dialogue scenes
3. Reduce the insruments in the middle register or in the 350-5,00khz range during dialogue. If you are busy in the same register as the spoken dialogue, the sound editor will end up cutting your volume all the way down.
4. Use of percussion in soundtrack scores are always welcome. Check out Hans Zimmer. He can write a whole score with mainly percussion. Percs is about the only section that works equally well during dialogue and other sections.
Charging the producer? Do you charge the producer? That's weird.
PS Most commisioned projects are paid for in lumpsum.
1. If scoring for dialogue, keep the detail to the minimum to avoid distracting from the dialogue, i.e. pad sounds and slow movement in strings.
2. Reserve melodic lines for either in-between dialogue or for no-dialogue scenes
3. Reduce the insruments in the middle register or in the 350-5,00khz range during dialogue. If you are busy in the same register as the spoken dialogue, the sound editor will end up cutting your volume all the way down.
4. Use of percussion in soundtrack scores are always welcome. Check out Hans Zimmer. He can write a whole score with mainly percussion. Percs is about the only section that works equally well during dialogue and other sections.
Charging the producer? Do you charge the producer? That's weird.
PS Most commisioned projects are paid for in lumpsum.
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- KVRAF
- 4222 posts since 23 Feb, 2004 from Tucson Arizona USA
Many of Mozart's concertos were played with the ink not dry on the section parts, and the clavier part not even written down yet.Sepheritoh wrote:It is amazing what one can do given a tight deadline.
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- KVRian
- 1214 posts since 10 Aug, 2005
These days the trend is a 'package-deal' where you get a lump sum up front and then from this fee you have to produce the music including hiring out any gear/musicians/studio time. All parts of the package deal are negotiable from the royalities through to how many minutes of music you are to produce before getting paid extra for further work.
The package deal of course works out best for the composer who has their own studio set up so that you gain the most profit from the up-front fee.
As I said, read up on 'Complete Guide to Film Scoring' it is really useful if a couple years out of date.
The package deal of course works out best for the composer who has their own studio set up so that you gain the most profit from the up-front fee.
As I said, read up on 'Complete Guide to Film Scoring' it is really useful if a couple years out of date.
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- KVRAF
- 2401 posts since 29 Dec, 2002 from In the dark
I just thought I'll add one more thing on your question about themes. Many composers refer to the Wagner operas as the place to learn. He used motifs for each character as described by Raven above. (Once you checked it out and made a study of it, please post your finding for us here, as I have never bothered listening to any opera music.)
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- KVRian
- 1202 posts since 8 May, 2003 from Munich
To support the intimate feel of the story (that is if I'm interpreting your comment on sparse dialogue and sound correctly here) you could use a single instrument, like a piano playing a very slow, soft theme that complements the mood of the film. And only use it where necessary. That film sounds like the emphasis is on the atmosphere and subtle emotions portrayed, so the score needs to be equally subtle.
All that's an assumption and wild guesses, without knowing a script or seeing the scenes in context it's virtually impossible to offer much of an idea.
What to charge highly depends on the project and your degree of involvement. But whatever you get paid make sure it's no package deal that leaves you in debt paying the expenses for musicians, studio time or whatever it is the director/producer want without realizing what they want doesn't fit into their budget.
Also have a look at this and this book. The Score and Reel world are also interesting reads.
All that's an assumption and wild guesses, without knowing a script or seeing the scenes in context it's virtually impossible to offer much of an idea.
What to charge highly depends on the project and your degree of involvement. But whatever you get paid make sure it's no package deal that leaves you in debt paying the expenses for musicians, studio time or whatever it is the director/producer want without realizing what they want doesn't fit into their budget.
Also have a look at this and this book. The Score and Reel world are also interesting reads.
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- KVRian
- 1214 posts since 10 Aug, 2005
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- KVRAF
- 2401 posts since 29 Dec, 2002 from In the dark
I assume you refer to the Richard Davis book. I will also endorse it. A very good read. Another good one is "the Reel World" by Jeff Rona.spuddle wrote:
As I said, read up on 'Complete Guide to Film Scoring' it is really useful if a couple years out of date.
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- KVRAF
- 2401 posts since 29 Dec, 2002 from In the dark
Like listening to opera music!!!spuddle wrote:Why are you giving advice you don't follow yourself Sepheritoh?
