Hartmann R.I.P

[shamann]

It's very versatile for sound design so I don't understand why you're playing this down.

No question it is versatile, but then many other things are equally versatile, so that doesn't explain market dominance. Besides, marketing isn't inherently bamboozling, it is a reflection of how Cycling 74 has catered to that market by tailoring its products/services. And good on them. The scenario is you have 20 equally great things to choose from, here's that little extra bit of service to get you to choose our software. I think you're confusing "marketing" with "big bag of evil" where I'm just referring to it as "how to make a good product and sell it, too."

And I'm not suggesting that the Neuron was innovative, you asked where it fit in, and I answered that. I don't think it is all that innovative, and I don't think synthesis that uses sound models based on neural networks or any kind of AI learning framework is particularly interesting. I also think Hartmann employed its fair share of "big bag of evil" over the years, dressing up its technology in crypto-advert speak. But that wasn't what we were jabbering about.

[whyterabbyt]

that. I don't think it is all that innovative, and I don't think synthesis that uses sound models based on neural networks or any kind of AI learning framework is particularly interesting.

As a total and utter aside, why not?

[lobotomie]

whyterabbyt...

[whyterabbyt]

what?

[Scot Solida]

Yeah. With seven cards, I get a lot of polyphony, even for complex things. Next month, my Kyma gets maxed out, so I shouldn't have too many worries. Still, Kyma is like any other software modular in that you might not get the same amount of polyphony you would expect from an optimised synth performing the same tasks.

Mind you, they ALL have more polyphony than our modulars...

Scot.. did I ever tell you how much I hate you and how much I'd love to be in your shoes?




- bManic[/quote]

No. You would HATE to be in my shoes. You might like to be in my studio, but never in my shoes. I have been wearing the same pair of worn-out, tattered shoes for two years. They were bad when I bought them (for something like twelve dollars) and they are only short of torturous now. As a matter of fact, I was just thinking how badly my feet hurt.

Why? The shoes.

Why would I wear these shoes? On account of spending all of my money on gear.

[emdot_ambient]

As far as the sounds not being unique - well, what are you basing that on?

You really don't read very well, do you? Notice that in my note I said that the sounds I had heard from it are not all that unique. I never said the synth wasn't unique. But you ignore that because you're up on your defensive high horse.

...But, hell, you won't be convinced because, what - you've heard mp3's. Ok, I confess, you're an expert.

Yes, I am an expert. When I listen to an mp3, I'm in instant expert on what I just heard. When I read a review written by someone who actually used the synth, I'm an instant expert on what their opinion of the synth is. I notice you're not giving us any examples of your amazing work with the Neuron to change our minds. All you're doing is making us doubt your opinions by insulting us with your condescending misinterpretations of what we've said.

To quote you, "you don't know shit."

[shamann]

As a total and utter aside, why not?

Always felt it was much ado about nothing. In the case of neural networks, a system is trained to scan a set of sound types, and then you input new sounds that are matched to the behaviour of those known models. Except, from a synthesis perspective, the info contained within those models is too great to be controlled to any useful degree, so essentially you have all this overhead to get you the same results you started with, and with very little extra control over the output. That would explain why so much of the results sound like wavetable systems, because that is ultimately what they are. It strikes me as a lot of fancy dress, expending cycles in an impressive manner, but obfuscating the commonplace results.

AI and neural networks can be really cool for analysis, but they require a significant amount of training, and they generally are best for quantifying information you already knew. And in the case of neural synthesis, they're not even giving you more data about the sound you're using, rather taking a sound and forcing it in to an existing similar model, over which you only have limited control. It's like raytracing reverbs, in the end, they don't produce results that are distinguishable from other methods. I'm not opposed to new methods being explored, but don't see a need to apply them outside of research if they aren't giving something new. Unless of course if it looks more impressive in an advert "Buy our synth, our technology sounds impressive on paper."

Now on the Neuron, it had more going on than just the neural network thing, that just happened to be what they emphasized to justify the high price.

[vista]

... now it's time for TERRATEC
to buy HARTMANN to build a
better KOMPLEXER

... and WE have the best WALDORF ever !!!

[droolmaster0]

As far as the sounds not being unique - well, what are you basing that on?

You really don't read very well, do you? Notice that in my note I said that the sounds I had heard from it are not all that unique. I never said the synth wasn't unique. But you ignore that because you're up on your defensive high horse.

Yes. I agree with you. It was not so much here that I misread, but that I was just writing so fast, and multitasking here at work, that it came out really unfairly.

So - sorry for that one. I don't think that it makes sense to continue this at this point and explain exactly what I meant. I'll just stick with my apology. Sorry, again.

[Ben [Camel Audio]]

I just think Ben should charactarize the relationship properly

BT bought it and I happened to notice the name Brian Transeau and thought it was familiar (I was a big fan of Ima many years ago). I then emailed and said I was excited he was using my software, and that I'd enjoyed Ima and would be interested in any comments and suggestions he had. He then emailed me back with some of his thoughts on Cameleon and subsequently gave me permission to put those on my website.

I have never paid him any money. I did give him permission to use it on a couple of extra machines - but this was some months after he'd given me several quotes which I put on my website.

Many other people have bought copies of Cameleon and have made nice comments about it to me and have received absolutely nothing in return. For example, as I mentioned, Hans Zimmer told me he really liked it and was using it in various projects. This was entirely unpromted - I didn't even recognise him!

I have never and would never ask for positive quotes in return for money, software or anything else (including sexual favours ). I would never wish to have anyone express anything other than their true feelings about Camel Audio products.

who would say something nice about software (or something else) if he doesn't like it (even if he's been given it for free)

I think thats a valid point.

hmmm - I started out by saying that my opinion of Cameleon was 'my opinion'. And the quote by BT sounds just as unqualified as mine, but that's ok since he is praising Cameleon?

I don't claim that the quote from BT is OK whereas what you said was not. I think you both have the absolute right to say what you like. My problem with your statement, is that it seemed to imply that its hilarious to compare Cameleon with Neuron because Neuron is so much better, and that anyone who had played a Neuron would realise this. I am sorry if I misunderstood you.

It's hilarious that you bring up Cameleon. I think that the sound quality of Cameleon is pretty bad. In any case, the vs sounds so much better than Cameleon that the fact that you bring up Cameleon suggests that you really don't have any idea of what it is like to play a Neuron.

My point was simply that there were plenty of people who own Neuron keyboards who love Cameleon. I gave the quote of BT and and comments of Hans Zimmer to show that I wasn't simply making it up.

Thanks
Ben

[jens]

... now it's time for TERRATEC
to buy HARTMANN to build a
better KOMPLEXER

... and WE have the best WALDORF ever !!!

something makes me hope it's not the same guys working on it again - but something makes me also fear it's them once more... (which then would lead Terratec into insolvence of course )


but on the other hand:

PPG vst has got this ammesia problem with some hosts (e.g. Tracktion) but apart from this it works great - also Attack and D-Pole work pretty much flawlessly - so I'm wondering why they screwed up the Neuron so seriously and why they apparently couldn't fix it...

[jens]

I have never and would never ask for positive quotes in return for money, software or anything else (including sexual favours )

not even if it was BT?

[emdot_ambient]

As far as the sounds not being unique - well, what are you basing that on?

You really don't read very well, do you? Notice that in my note I said that the sounds I had heard from it are not all that unique. I never said the synth wasn't unique. But you ignore that because you're up on your defensive high horse.

Yes. I agree with you. It was not so much here that I misread, but that I was just writing so fast, and multitasking here at work, that it came out really unfairly.

So - sorry for that one. I don't think that it makes sense to continue this at this point and explain exactly what I meant. I'll just stick with my apology. Sorry, again.

Apology accepted. I apologize, too. I got a bit snippy in my last note.

I have no doubt the Neuron is unique and desireable in many ways. My only points were that from a marketing point of view they had the deck stacked against them.

[droolmaster0]

As far as the sounds not being unique - well, what are you basing that on?

You really don't read very well, do you? Notice that in my note I said that the sounds I had heard from it are not all that unique. I never said the synth wasn't unique. But you ignore that because you're up on your defensive high horse.

Yes. I agree with you. It was not so much here that I misread, but that I was just writing so fast, and multitasking here at work, that it came out really unfairly.

So - sorry for that one. I don't think that it makes sense to continue this at this point and explain exactly what I meant. I'll just stick with my apology. Sorry, again.

Apology accepted. I apologize, too. I got a bit snippy in my last note.

I have no doubt the Neuron is unique and desireable in many ways. My only points were that from a marketing point of view they had the deck stacked against them.

And that is undoubtedly true.

[munchkin]

And I'm sorry too! Let's all be friends now - they're only bloody synthesisers, after all.



I worry that wars will someday be fought over synthesis.

P.S. It was me who left the cigarette burning on your minimoog keyboard 15 years ago, M Stephens.