Storm Studio, Reason, FL Studio, and Orion Platinum

[Wopelka]

So I'm stuck in a hotel room in a strange city, on a rainy night and it passes the time.

are you on tour?

[arke]

The entire point behind Reason is that its closed. It gives you anything that you could ever need to synthesize a sound

Wavetable synthesis or wave sequencing for incredible, evolving textures?

Maelstrom Graintable synthesizer.

How about FM for metallic and other sounds?

Subtractor has FM.

Phase Distortion is also very good for that, got any in Reason? Not even a nice Additive?

If you explain to me how phase distortion works, maybe. The nice thing about Reason is that even if theres something missing you can probably make it using other methods (for example, Reason doesn't have PWM but it doesn't need to because the Subtractor's Phase stuff does all that and more.

and more than enough to use samples (NN-XT is godlike).

Does it read soundfonts? AKAI format samples? Kurzweil?

Hrm, nope. You got me there. Although I'm sure its not too much effort to convert - and really, I find the multisample refills much more realistic anyway.

If you like what you made and want to keep it, you put it into a combinator and program the important knobs on it.

Can't you just save a preset?

Erm, sorry about not saying this good. Yes, you can. You program your combinator so it acts like a synth or effect or whatever then save it, and it saves everything with it.

No VSTs needed.

Unless you want to use somethign that Reason doesn't have, like a Harmonic Resonator or Transient Shaper or an Impulse Response Processor. Or even a different distortion to the one yo ualways use, just for a change.

I don't know what a Transient Shaper does, you're welcome to explain it to me. As for the other two, its covered by the RV7000 "Reverb" which is actually alot more than just a reverb.

The subtractor pretty much does all that WaspXT does.

Except that it doesn't have a filter with anywhere near the sound of WaspXT's.

If you tell me what makes its filter so special I'll tell you how to get the sound in Reason.

Where Reason really fails is that it costs more than ll of its competitors and has no audio tracks. Sure, yo ucan use a sampler to hold and sequence all that stuff but it is an order of magnitude more effort and not really the ideal solution. And the effects in later versions may have improved but in v1 they were utter krap. Laughable, even, but that never stopped it from selling like snow cones on a summer's day.

The effects in Orion 1 or 2 or FL 1 or 2 were probably just as laughable. Don't judge a product that's been around for a while by its first version.

Yes, audio tracks are not nice. I admit that. Fortunately, I barely ever use any.

Now, lets see. Reason 3.0 costs $499. That's alot. Included is everything you need, pretty much. Routing is unlimited, the amount of notes and stuff is unlimited. Almost all parameters can be controlled by control voltage by pretty much anything else. There's no "limited version for cheaper" for ripping off customers by taking their money through the upgrade path. Theres about 1.2GB worth of samples AND presets, about the same amount downloadable from CombinatorHQ, probably more from other Reason sites, and many that you can order for cheap or expensive. It comes in a box set with printed documentation, and you can order replacement CDs when yours break or get lost. Yes, that costs money too, but I haven't heard of anybody else do that.

Orion comes in the Pro version and the Platinum version, the Pro version being just sufficiently limited to force customers to take the upgrade path. Routing is limited, having only four main buses and only two insert effects per track. Yes, you can use a VST plugin that allows you to use more but that costs money too. Each instrument can only have so many patterns (i didn't feel like counting), and only one can play at the same time. The platinum version costs $299 for the box set. It comes with a printed manual and that nice stuff, and 600MB of presets ... yes, 600MB of presets compared to 1.2GB of presets and samples in Reason.

FL Studio has three versions, the lower two being too crippled for anybody to consider using. Comes with a relatively small but effective sample and preset library. Can create complex serial routings but only has 4 send effects. Has up to 8 insert effects per mixer track and you can route that to any other track so that you can have quite a bit more, although not quite as much as Reason. Has a peak/lfo controller and formula controller for creating complex modulations. The base price is $149, usually people will opt for the XXL version which is $299 and gives you a bit more stuff. You can download samples and presets for free from many places.

So yes, Reason is a bit overpriced, but think about Steinberg products and how they are selling, like you said, like snow cones on a summer's day (Nuendo costs upwards of $1000!). There's a good Reason (pun intended) why many music schools require their students to have a laptop with Reason installed.

[BONES]

are you on tour?

No, its work. I doubt that there is any kind of scene anywhere in Asia for us [except Japan, which is not part of our region]. I spent a useless half day at one of the local TV networks today and I'm not flying to Hong Kong until Sunday. If it wasn't raining I would have gone for a walk and had dinner from a street vendor or three but I took the easy option and had the krappy hotel buffet instead.

[diverdee]

So I'm stuck in a hotel room in a strange city, on a rainy night and it passes the time. What's it to you? No-one's making you read it.

yeah - i'm stuck at work bored silly - so I thought i'd pull your pisser to pass the time - troll that I am

[BONES]

Subtractor has FM.

So does Wasp but its ot the same thing.

If you explain to me how phase distortion works, maybe. The nice thing about Reason is that even if theres something missing you can probably make it using other methods (for example, Reason doesn't have PWM but it doesn't need to because the Subtractor's Phase stuff does all that and more.

No, I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. Phase and PWM are very, very different things. PD is a method of synthesis which distorts the phase of a simple wave, as its generated, to create more complex waveforms. Its good for a lot of the same stuff as proper FM but I always found it more fun to work with as you can actually predict results. Check out PlastiCZ! for a good example/

Hrm, nope. You got me there. Although I'm sure its not too much effort to convert - and really, I find the multisample refills much more realistic anyway.

There you go again with the proprietary formats. What is their problem!?!

Erm, sorry about not saying this good. Yes, you can. You program your combinator so it acts like a synth or effect or whatever then save it, and it saves everything with it.

But you can't save a preset for NN-XT or whatever its called? Really?

No VSTs needed.

Unless you want to use somethign that Reason doesn't have, like a Harmonic Resonator or Transient Shaper or an Impulse Response Processor. Or even a different distortion to the one yo ualways use, just for a change.

I don't know what a Transient Shaper does, you're welcome to explain it to me. As for the other two, its covered by the RV7000 "Reverb" which is actually alot more than just a reverb.

If you tell me what makes its filter so special I'll tell you how to get the sound in Reason.

Well, if I could tell you that I imagine that everyone would be using Rich's filter algorithm. I can explain what makes it superior but that won't help you unless you can tell Subtraktor how to get its resonance to reach way down into the frequency spectrum to achieve a superior integrated resonant sound instead of the normal disconnected chirp of most filters.

The effects in Orion 1 or 2 or FL 1 or 2 were probably just as laughable. Don't judge a product that's been around for a while by its first version.

Well, at the time I was judging against the same versions of FL and ORION. And ORION was only at v1.7 when Reason came out so its not like it had been around for more than 6 months or so at the time.

Now, lets see. Reason 3.0 costs $499. That's alot. Included is everything you need, pretty much.

Except that it has fewer effects and instruments than either FL or ORION either of which will cost you a fraction of that price.

Routing is unlimited, the amount of notes and stuff is unlimited. Almost all parameters can be controlled by control voltage by pretty much anything else.

I'll tel what's hugely limited compared to everythign else out there - plugin support and audio tracks. Let's not even talk about audio recording.

Theres about 1.2GB worth of samples AND presets, about the same amount downloadable from CombinatorHQ, probably more from other Reason sites, and many that you can order for cheap or expensive.

Do have any idea how big the AKAI library is. Remember tha tit has been around for going on 20 years now, most of that time as the top-of-the-line sampler. Just imagine how much stuff has been accumulated for it over 20 years. Then there's soundfonts and Kurzweil and after that we can get to proprietary formats.

Orion comes in the Pro version and the Platinum version, the Pro version being just sufficiently limited to force customers to take the upgrade path. Routing is limited, having only four main buses and only two insert effects per track. Yes, you can use a VST plugin that allows you to use more but that costs money too. Each instrument can only have so many patterns (i didn't feel like counting), and only one can play at the same time. The platinum version costs $299 for the box set. It comes with a printed manual and that nice stuff, and 600MB of presets ... yes, 600MB of presets compared to 1.2GB of presets and samples in Reason.

So that's half as much for half the money, making it about even on sample content. BTW, I have recently been surprised to discover how many people actually use ORION Pro on a regular basis to make music. I would say that it is probably a closer match for Reason, minus sample content which is irrelevant in light of the enormous free resources on the 'net.

There's a good Reason (pun intended) why many music schools require their students to have a laptop with Reason installed.

The place I teach at has Cubarse and Traktion on its G4 and G5 workstations and doesn't require its students to have a laptop at all. And the reason they use big name software is because they have enormous buying power and they can get good support from a local reseller. Buying something that is web delivered with no local support would be too far outside their comfort zone. Again, its like Corollas - not the greatest car around but it has lots of comfort factor for morons.

[mooter]

Orion comes in the Pro version and the Platinum version, the Pro version being just sufficiently limited to force customers to take the upgrade path.

Forced customer? Whose fault is it that they didn't look through the options to realize what they did and didn't need to use before they spent their money?

Routing is limited, having only four main buses and only two insert effects per track. Yes, you can use a VST plugin that allows you to use more but that costs money too.

Actually there are also 4 sends and the option to add more inserts is comes in 2 included inserts, the BandFx insert, which allows you to add 2 fx for low, mid, and high bandwidth, and the MultiFx controller, where you can cross fade between 4 fx in an x/y fashion or use them serially. Those don't cost extra they're not vst, they are native and included.

64 Patterns actually, and you can play them at the same time via the playlist.

600MB of presets ... yes, 600MB of presets compared to 1.2GB of presets and samples in Reason.

So it's half the amount you get with reason, you're saying that limits the users ability to make half the music?

So yes, Reason is a bit overpriced, but think about Steinberg products and how they are selling, like you said, like snow cones on a summer's day (Nuendo costs upwards of $1000!). There's a good Reason (pun intended) why many music schools require their students to have a laptop with Reason installed.

Hell yes it's overpriced, (you wanna know why you haven't heard of anyone requesting a backup cd?)
Don't compare Cubase to Reason.

As for requiring students to have reason on a laptop?
Is it a school or a weekend workshop?

[zircon]

Hrm, nope. You got me there. Although I'm sure its not too much effort to convert - and really, I find the multisample refills much more realistic anyway.

Actually NN-XT CAN read soundfonts and Akai.

[Shane Sanders]

At the end of the day, I'm just stoked that I have a decent virtual studio at all. I can remember trying to get Power Tracks to talk to a YamahaTG55 module and being thrilled that it had a, as in ONE, drum kit in it. And all this was then routed into a Tascam cassette 4-track where the guitars happened because PC's were too anemic at the time to do hard disk recording.

edit: And the envelopes on those drums were so short that I've farted more convincing tam-tam sounds.

[arke]

No, its an actual school. And yes, the phase stuff of subtractor can do PWM.

And as fun as this has been I'm starting to get bored of it. Let's all agree to disagree, I'll use horribly overpriced Reason and you'll use Orion.

[BONES]

What about FL, are you gonna ditch it?

[arke]

What about FL, are you gonna ditch it?

Yes I am. Actually, I already have. Once I finally get my controller it'll be even easier. Only thing left for me to do is convert all my old projects to Reason. I've got some collabs to finish in FL and then its bye bye Image-Line for me.

edit: And yes, you were a partial influence. About 10%. If it makes you feel any better or worse.

[sdv]

all this talk makes me wish Muzys3 had continued development... it was quite the sequencer and needed just a few tweaks to make it a top host.

[sdv]

What about FL, are you gonna ditch it?

I've got some collabs to finish in FL and then its bye bye Image-Line for me.

Where does FLS go to die since IL won't let ppl transfer registrations?

[Wopelka]

What about FL, are you gonna ditch it?

Yes I am. Actually, I already have. Once I finally get my controller it'll be even easier. Only thing left for me to do is convert all my old projects to Reason. I've got some collabs to finish in FL and then its bye bye Image-Line for me.

uh? aren't you ?

if you like Reason, fine, but it's more a complement, a big synth to be rewired to some real sequencer, than a replacement to an open host like FL or ORION.

[arke]

I'm gonna keep it. Every so often a collab comes up with a FL user.

If you find me a way to control Reason's knobs for automation from another host via ReWire, then I'll be happy. But since I'm 100% certain that there's no easy way to do that, I'll just stick with Reason itself. The sequencer isn't bad at all once you get used to it. It encourages variation, something that's been missing from my previous songs.