How to test a compressor plugin ...

[fritzman]

I'm trying to learn what IS acceptable behaviour here at KVR. Apparantly profuse profanity is acceptable. Apparantly personal attacks are acceptable. Apparantly expressing an opinion is unnacceptable.

1. Unfortunately yes.
2. Unfortunately yes.
3. Definitely NO!


Best wishes, FRitz

[greendoor]

when people have said (including myself, though i did say optional) that distortion/saturation and filtering should be seperate, i think 'optional' was more inteneded. i also think they were refering purely to the effect that is applied without relation to the actual compression stages. for instance, i'm sure various compressor plugins which 'claim' to 'emulate' tubes, infact just apply some kind of saturation effect at various stages. honestly, this might seem like a fairly good 'emulation' for many people, but it isnt the only effect a tube or whatever might apply to the signal, and it really should be option since it is not related to the compression at all. well, unless you wanted to count saturation as a form of compression, but beside that point.

i'm very aware of the basic effects that occur when you are compressing a signal, with any method. obviously fast reacting compression is almost exactly like saturation. but in this case saturation seems to have been observed with very light settings, and no option was found for disabling the seemingly obvious seperate saturation effect.

as i stated before, i'm certain the ideal compressor would have it as an option, and wouldnt force you to use it like the processors in question do.

Careful - that kind of loose talk can get you into trouble. You expressed my personal preference better than I could myself. Sorry this has all become bit stupid.

[bmanic]

as i stated before, i'm certain the ideal compressor would have it as an option, and wouldnt force you to use it like the processors in question do.

Or it's stated that the compressor in question does add harmonics and it's the users choise wether to use it or not, right?

I do agree however that it would be nice to get one super-duper-mofo compressor that could do it all, from one interface but it might get rather cluttered and hard to use for the average user.

Cheers!
bManic

[bmanic]

Greendoor, seriously, your "bwaaaah! they are all against me because I said my opinion" drama act is getting a bit long in the tooth. If you read carefully from the beginning you'll notice that what everybody else later commented was also just their own opinion about your method and your comments. Now, using your own logic, what's wrong with that? Nothing.

- bManic

[bmanic]

I'm trying to learn what IS acceptable behaviour here at KVR. Apparantly profuse profanity is acceptable. Apparantly personal attacks are acceptable. Apparantly expressing an opinion is unnacceptable.

1. Unfortunately yes.
2. Unfortunately yes.
3. Definitely NO!


Best wishes, FRitz

Touché. Damn, I'll just shut up now and let Fritzman do the talking.

- bManic

[aciddose]

it may become complex with many options available to the user. (although with my idea of interfaces, i dont think so.) very good quality compressors already exist, and adding the option of filters or saturation would be exceptionally easy for the developers of those processors. it was my opinion that any processor that does not have the option, could then be improved by its addition.

if i ever add such things as saturation to my compressor, i'll definitely make it optional.

[greendoor]

Just for the record, I have several Voxengo compressors and love them. I don't love that fact that I need dozens of compressors to do slightly different things - but when it comes down to it, the Voxengo sound is usually hard to resist.

But sometimes I want to compress only a few specific parts, and to have confidence that everything else below the threshold is not changed in any way at all. I know now which compressors to avoid in that situation. (Sorry, hope the word "avoid" didn't upset anyone).

[bmanic]

if i ever add such things as saturation to my compressor, i'll definitely make it optional.

Yes, this would be most preferable indeed.

Cheers!
bManic

[bmanic]

But sometimes I want to compress only a few specific parts, and to have confidence that everything else below the threshold is not changed in any way at all.

Confidence, meaning you can read it in the manual, stating that nothing is changed. Or doing a phase inverse test that shows there are no changes going on at below -100dBFS?

Wouldn't it be pretty good timing now to say the old cliché, "Use whatever you think sounds good" ?

Sorry, being an ass here, I know, I also get stuck watching meters and reading manuals about technical details (that I might or might not hear!) to improve my 'confidence' about using a plugin (for instance, I always use plugins in highest quality mode, even if I can't really hear the difference! ).

- bManic

[fritzman]

I'm trying to learn what IS acceptable behaviour here at KVR. Apparantly profuse profanity is acceptable. Apparantly personal attacks are acceptable. Apparantly expressing an opinion is unnacceptable.

1. Unfortunately yes.
2. Unfortunately yes.
3. Definitely NO!


Best wishes, FRitz

Touché. Damn, I'll just shut up now and let Fritzman do the talking.

- bManic

Hey bmanic,

that was a nice compliment but please don't do it. You're one of my absolute favourites here.


Best wishes, Fitz

[eduardo_b]

Wouldn't it be pretty good timing now to say the old cliché, "Use whatever you think sounds good" ?

As I read this thread I could see an interesting topic being lost among some marginal choices of words to express what may or may not be audible changes in music. I've been an editor for many years, and have worked on everything from scientific journals to special interest magazines, so when I tell you that the choice of words is everything, it's far more than personal opinion.

Some words are inherently negative, and anyone who hears or sees these words will interpret them with a negative connotation. Other words are neutral or can be depending on the context. Others are considered positive. Simply deciding that a word isn't negative because it wasn't intended that way won't work.

So, "harm" and "damage" are negative, "change" or "alter" are neutral, and "improve" or "enhance" are positive. They cannot be substituted for each other without changing how negative, positive or neutral the meaning will be. End of story.

In the context of this thread, only the neutral terms are suitable because they don't convey good or bad, but rather simply the presence or absence of change -- no value judgement is being made. As far as editors are concerned, there are "right" and "wrong" words that avoid confusion or misinterpretation by accurately representing what is meant.

In this case, Voxengo compressors to not harm the signal, but they may change the signal. If you can't hear the difference, it certainly doesn't matter.

[Kingston]

for instance, i'm sure various compressor plugins which 'claim' to 'emulate' tubes, infact just apply some kind of saturation effect at various stages. honestly, this might seem like a fairly good 'emulation' for many people, but it isnt the only effect a tube or whatever might apply to the signal, and it really should be option since it is not related to the compression at all. well, unless you wanted to count saturation as a form of compression, but beside that point.

You're getting to the core of the "brown up" wave of modern tube design. It's the result of the competition forcing manufacturers to slap tubes and saturation, wether digital of analog, on everything. At some point it was nearly forgotten why tubes were used in the first place. Their real task, as everybody should be aware of, is not to make everything sound farty and blownup or even "warm" (which is nearly a curseword thanks to this design wave).

If I get a choice to turn off this artificial "brown sound" in a piece of gear, I will.

Heck, I've got vox tonelab sitting on the table over here and it's got a tube that has an orange backlight!! It's there because people expect tubes to glow (or even pulse!!) and it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Welcome to the world of placebo. I'm so deeply ashamed of this light that the next time I open up the thing I'll snap the light right off!

[fritzman]

Wouldn't it be pretty good timing now to say the old cliché, "Use whatever you think sounds good" ?

As I read this thread I could see an interesting topic being lost among some marginal choices of words to express what may or may not be audible changes in music. I've been an editor for many years, and have worked on everything from scientific journals to special interest magazines, so when I tell you that the choice of words is everything, it's far more than personal opinion.

Some words are inherently negative, and anyone who hears or sees these words will interpret them with a negative connotation. Other words are neutral or can be depending on the context. Others are considered positive. Simply deciding that a word isn't negative because it wasn't intended that way won't work.

So, "harm" and "damage" are negative, "change" or "alter" are neutral, and "improve" or "enhance" are positive. They cannot be substituted for each other without changing how negative, positive or neutral the meaning will be. End of story.

In the context of this thread, only the neutral terms are suitable because they don't convey good or bad, but rather simply the presence or absence of change -- no value judgement is being made. As far as editors are concerned, there are "right" and "wrong" words that avoid confusion or misinterpretation by accurately representing what is meant.

In this case, Voxengo compressors to not harm the signal, but they may change the signal. If you can't hear the difference, it certainly doesn't matter.

Wow eduardo,

thanx a lot for this. Copied to a file and saved. I'll make me a wall paper out of it or something like this. Very good explanation.


All the best, FRitz

[fritzman]

Heck, I've got vox tonelab sitting on the table over here and it's got a tube that has an orange backlight!! It's there because people expect tubes to glow (or even pulse!!) and it makes them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Welcome to the world of placebo. I'm so deeply ashamed of this light that the next time I open up the thing I'll snap the light right off!

I recently read something about a piece of Behringer gear that had three LEDs behind a tube for the same shiny effect.
Real tube glow IS nice but if it doesn't sound rite then ...


Best wishes, FRitz

[Hink]

If you use the K-v-Rake, this thread is very imformative indeed, thanx to those who have made it so...