I have the waves l2 and l3 maximizer but the latency is horrible and restricts them to mastering use only . I heard the l1 could be used for tracking with near 0 lateny. Any body agree or disagree with the latency being enough of an issue not to track with it?
dblock
waves L1 good for tracking?
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- KVRian
- 769 posts since 2 Apr, 2005
In my opinion, a software limiter should never be used while tracking. Set your gain structure so that you never clip your A/D converter. An external hardware limiter might possibly be used for this, but I prefer to avoid any compression or limiting while tracking.
Simply because, you shouldn't be tracking so hot that you clip your A/D anyway. Peaking at maximum -6dB is more than hot enough. (An A/D converter is an analog device - it's sweet spot is much lower than that - don't make the mistake of thinking it's a digital device and trying to get close to 0dB).
Even if your choose to clip your A/D converter, your audio can never exceed 0dB anyway - so a limiter achieves nothing, and may cause damage that you regret. At least if you smash it with a limiter afwerwards, you can always revert to your original tracks if you regret it.
Plugin latency at mixing is only a problem if your host doesn't compensate for it.
Simply because, you shouldn't be tracking so hot that you clip your A/D anyway. Peaking at maximum -6dB is more than hot enough. (An A/D converter is an analog device - it's sweet spot is much lower than that - don't make the mistake of thinking it's a digital device and trying to get close to 0dB).
Even if your choose to clip your A/D converter, your audio can never exceed 0dB anyway - so a limiter achieves nothing, and may cause damage that you regret. At least if you smash it with a limiter afwerwards, you can always revert to your original tracks if you regret it.
Plugin latency at mixing is only a problem if your host doesn't compensate for it.
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- KVRist
- 133 posts since 9 Apr, 2004
I use L1 quite frequently as in insert (bass guitar and sometimes kick or overheads), but never during tracking. Record at 24 bit and give yourself some heardroom.
fizbin
fizbin
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- KVRAF
- 5521 posts since 6 May, 2002
I thought as close to 0db without clipping was the best S/N ratio rule for any A/D? Isn't maximum -1db is better that -6db?greendoor wrote:Simply because, you shouldn't be tracking so hot that you clip your A/D anyway. Peaking at maximum -6dB is more than hot enough. (An A/D converter is an analog device - it's sweet spot is much lower than that - don't make the mistake of thinking it's a digital device and trying to get close to 0dB).
Intel Core2 Quad CPU + 4 GIG RAM
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- KVRian
- 769 posts since 2 Apr, 2005
That's what I thought too, for years. But several more experienced people convinced me that this is the wrong approach. If you think in terms of theoretical digital audio, then a hotter signal would appear to be better. But an A/D converter is actually more of an analog device than you would expect. An analog device has a sweet spot: too low gives a bad signal to noise, too hot and the sound gets colored due to lack of headroom. This optimal zone is called 0dbU, as in VU meter volume units. This is well below 0dbFS (digital full scale). Typically this is around -18dBFS to -15dBFS - check with your A/D converter manual.
The other thing to consider is that with 24 bits, you have a theoretical dynamic range of 130dB, but even the best converters never achieve that range. Bearing in mind the analog nature of converters, you can be certain that they won't sound their best in that top 6dB range. So it's foolish to try to squish all your audio into that top 6dB range.
It's especially unnecessary when tracking, because by the time you have mixed your tracks, they will need to be dropped in level anyway.
So relax, find that sweet spot for your converters, and get better sound quality.
FWIW - both VU meters and DAW waveform displays are exponential scales that expand that last 6dB to fill half the meter/graph. This, I think, distorts your view of this area and is probably responsible for people trying to cram everything into that zone. Don't worry if you don't see a lot of meter activity while you are tracking - it's not as bad as it looks.
The other thing to consider is that with 24 bits, you have a theoretical dynamic range of 130dB, but even the best converters never achieve that range. Bearing in mind the analog nature of converters, you can be certain that they won't sound their best in that top 6dB range. So it's foolish to try to squish all your audio into that top 6dB range.
It's especially unnecessary when tracking, because by the time you have mixed your tracks, they will need to be dropped in level anyway.
So relax, find that sweet spot for your converters, and get better sound quality.
FWIW - both VU meters and DAW waveform displays are exponential scales that expand that last 6dB to fill half the meter/graph. This, I think, distorts your view of this area and is probably responsible for people trying to cram everything into that zone. Don't worry if you don't see a lot of meter activity while you are tracking - it's not as bad as it looks.
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n-04:05:03:05:7 n-04:05:03:05:7 https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=59832 - KVRist
- 309 posts since 28 Feb, 2005 from France
I'll try that, thank you for this information greendoor.
Do you think that this approach is valid with all A/D converters and not just high end stuff (AD-16, etc)?
Do you think that this approach is valid with all A/D converters and not just high end stuff (AD-16, etc)?
Ndct.
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- KVRian
- 769 posts since 2 Apr, 2005
I think this is valid for high end converters, and much more valid for cheap converters. Cheap converters have a narrower dynamic range than the good ones, so even more reason to avoid the extremes (too low, or too hot).
Although with 16 bits, you can't afford to waste the available bits, so you should work harder to constrain the dynamic range.
Although with 16 bits, you can't afford to waste the available bits, so you should work harder to constrain the dynamic range.
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- KVRAF
- 3745 posts since 29 Sep, 2002 from Killafornia
Very interesting.greendoor wrote:
Simply because, you shouldn't be tracking so hot that you clip your A/D anyway. Peaking at maximum -6dB is more than hot enough. (An A/D converter is an analog device - it's sweet spot is much lower than that - don't make the mistake of thinking it's a digital device and trying to get close to 0dB).
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