Possible to find small sampleset tht rivals Morif/Fantom?

[yul]

Hello,

Is there a sampleset that would rival the latest keys from yamaha and Roland ?

I see a lot of sample DVD's and sets of over 1Gig.
I find its just too demanding for a PC and HDD.

Sampletank is probably the best contender?

Hypersonic doesnt seem to be exactly there but I am ot certain.

[dougsyo]

Hello,

Is there a sampleset that would rival the latest keys from yamaha and Roland ?

I see a lot of sample DVD's and sets of over 1Gig.
I find its just too demanding for a PC and HDD.

Sampletank is probably the best contender?

ST2XL came on 8 CD's, if you figure 60% fill rate (probably conservative) on 650MB CD's, that's still over 3GB. ST2L has 4 CD's, at the same rate it's over 1.5GB. Kompakt came with close to 2GB, if I remember right. Dimension Pro will have a multi-gig sampleset, and I have most of the Eve and Wusik samplesets, those add up too.

Take a look at Ravity if you want a small sampleset, or Edirol HyperCanvas.

Doug

[P.T.]

I think the difference is that some sample CDs are just a piano and over 1 gig, or just a bass collection and over 1 gig. Sampletank is a lot of instruments for those gigs.

[hollowsun]

Is there a sampleset that would rival the latest keys from yamaha and Roland ?

I have a range of sound library for sale that is very economical (both in terms of price and memory usage/disk storage). Whether or not they are the sounds you are looking for is another matter, however.

You'll be hard pushed to find sounds to rival those from Roland, Korg and Yamaha because the art of optimising samples to the absolute bare minimum is a dying art these days and it is much easier to take long samples (maybe even very long samples to avoid looping, another dying art!).

You also have to bear in mind that the hardware synths you are referring to have optimised hardware and audio engines to play these samples efficiently.

The situation also has to be viewed from the 'marketing' or 'commercial' point of view - you just couldn't release a 12Mb, 16-bit/44.1kHz perfectly optimised string section for $50 today because it would almost automatically be disregarded as rubbish compared with a 1.5Gb, 24-bit/96kHz $400 equivalent (even though it might sound as good if not better!). So, developers have to go with the flow to compete in the market and if one of your competitors goes 20-bit, you have to go 24-bit... if they go 48khz, you have to go 96kHz... and so on. It's a 'numbers game' in a 'spec war'!!


Steve

[soniccouture]

Hi ,
Sorry for the shameless plug, but check out http://www.soniccouture.com/index.htm

Myself and my partner Dan created much of the Motif ( and Motif ES) Library during our time as sound designers for Yamaha.

I agree with Hollowsun, optimising samples is indeed a dying art - at Yamaha we would create a piano sample set in just 4mb or so , and it would sound very good..and I know that Mr Hollow did similar things for Akai.

The other factor is that companies like Yamaha have their own in house audio data compression systems that can seriously reduce memory requirements without being too destructive to the sound itself.

However, it is nice *not* to have these tight restrictions in these days of GB's of RAM - but a balance is required - most samples don't need a huge amount of memory to sound great if you know what you are doing.

cheers

[hollowsun]

I agree with Hollowsun, optimising samples is indeed a dying art - at Yamaha we would create a piano sample set in just 4mb or so , and it would sound very good..and I know that Mr Hollow did similar things for Akai.

Yep.... and others. The three major Japanese players are absolutely the masters of 'bonsai sampling' (I think miniaturising anything must be in their genes )!

4Mb for a piano tho? Luxury! When I started off in this, I had to get one onto an S900's 750kb floppy!!!!

The other factor is that companies like Yamaha have their own in house audio data compression systems that can seriously reduce memory requirements without being too destructive to the sound itself.

Indeed. Korg don't though.

These manufacturers also play with sample rates too - why use 44.1kHz on a bass guitar or kick drum that have little above 5kHz... 22.050kHz is more than sufficient and that is a 50% saving in memory for those sounds! And so on. All these 'old skool' sampling tricks are dying out!

Funny story - a developer contributed some sounds to an Akai project (that never saw the light of day as it happens).... bass guitars recorded 24/96 in stereo (even though the source was mono!!). Each instrument was like 20Mb or more! I got 'em down to something like 2Mb each with absolutely no difference in sound quality (and no data compression used!). If I had been a bit more ruthless and accepted a slight compromise in sound quality (given that the sounds would be buried in a mix), I could have halved that again.

Makes you think!!!

However, it is nice *not* to have these tight restrictions in these days of GB's of RAM - but a balance is required - most samples don't need a huge amount of memory to sound great if you know what you are doing.

Abso-bloody-lutely! Couldn't agree more.

Contrary to popular opinion, you just do not need 10 (or 20, 32, 64, 128) velocity samples for every note sampled at 24-bit and 96kHz (or higher as seems to be the projected trend!) and in most cases the only significant difference you will notice is the extra storage requirements (maybe even a separate disk drive!), the extra installation time, extra load times, extra save times, extra processing times, extra CPU strain and so on!

It is liberating to have more memory to play with but, as you say, there must be a balance. Think about it for a moment - if sample sets were more optimised, you could load and run more instances/instruments without having glitches and problems and/or rendering them to audio tracks.

There's a thought!


Steve

[telebunke]

So, developers have to go with the flow to compete in the market and if one of your competitors goes 20-bit, you have to go 24-bit..
Steve

Hmm, not completely, but youre right about the tendency.
But even though many 24 bit orchestral stuff is available these days, VSL still has lots of 16 bit stuff. In my eyes it is sufficient and the original recordings were don 24 or 32 bit, I assume.

tele

[bluedad]

Myself and my partner Dan created much of the Motif ( and Motif ES) Library during our time as sound designers for Yamaha

and a great job you did. I much prefer the 'bright piano' on the motif es to any sampleset I have. It's always puzzled me too, as I know it can't possibly be as large as some of my samples.
but I love it.

[soniccouture]

Myself and my partner Dan created much of the Motif ( and Motif ES) Library during our time as sound designers for Yamaha

and a great job you did. I much prefer the 'bright piano' on the motif es to any sampleset I have. It's always puzzled me too, as I know it can't possibly be as large as some of my samples.
but I love it.

I think ( if i recall correctly) , that piano might be around 16mb, but don't quote me.

One big reason it can be small is that the sustain is looped, meaning only the relatively short attack and decay really use up any memory ( if you leave a low note to fully sustain and die on its own it could take 10 seconds at least). Also, the samples are shared with Clavinova division, meaning that alot of research has gone into them before they even get to products like motif. And, as hollow sun says, the sample rates will be mixed, so low notes don't go much beyond 22.5k, etc.

As has been said, once you actually TRY to optimise samples, its not so hard to make big reductions with no loss of audio quality - it's just that it is out of fashion, and people need them to be as huge as possible for marketing purposes.

[daGuru]

Bang on the money... Bigger is definitely NOT better, when it comes to sampling, at least

And while on that, where is the variety in these samples. Yes, we have multi-layers, but a human being never plays the same note exactly the same way every time. I wish these guys would think about that too

[P.T.]

My favorite pianos are all in the 8-25 mb range. I have larger ones, up to 250mb but don't like them as much.

[hollowsun]

if you leave a low note to fully sustain and die on its own it could take 10 seconds at least

10 seconds? And the rest - low piano notes can take a minute or more to die away!!!

As has been said, once you actually TRY to optimise samples, its not so hard to make big reductions with no loss of audio quality

Yep!!!

it's just that it is out of fashion, and people need them to be as huge as possible for marketing purposes.

I don't think I could have written a more succinct description of the increasing trend towards 'bloatware' as this if I tried!!! Your one single, simple sentence nails it in one!


Steve

[telebunke]

In software, Hypersonic is using not that much RAM but offers quite a good sound.
Can it rival the Motif? Probably not, but it might be the closest you can get that uses little resourses.

tele

[GIRO]

HEY DUDES!

THE BEST is HYPERSONIC.. NOW! with HS2 coming out this month, Buying hardware Synths, is a Joke!
HS 2.0 comes with 1.7GB of awesome samples and even better system performance.

Check these demos:
Hypersonic 1.0
http://home.comcast.net/~duro7878/wsb/m ... tronic.mp3
Produced by Salvador Pelaez with HS 1.0

Hypersonic 2.0
http://www.steinberg.de/mp3/hypersonic2 ... ty_One.mp3
Produced with a single Hypersonic 2.0 instance (16 MIDI tracks)
Mixed within Cubase SX 3
No external devices used

http://www.steinberg.de/mp3/hypersonic2 ... _blame.mp3
Produced with a single Hypersonic 2.0 instance (16 MIDI tracks)
Mixed within Cubase SX 3
Additional vocals von Lars Slowak

http://www.steinberg.de/mp3/hypersonic2 ... _Rains.mp3
Produced with a single Hypersonic 2.0 instance (16 MIDI tracks)
Mixed within Cubase SX 3
Additional nylon guitar by Joern Becker

HS 2.0
“This update extends the strengths of the Hypersonic concept considerably by adding even more quality sounds and more creative potential while still being exceedingly resource-efficient,” comments Helge Vogt, Steinberg’s Product Manager for Virtual Instruments. “Hypersonic 2 should prove a great asset to musicians, composers and producers who are looking for an all-round musical content and sound source that is easy to use and allows the free flow of musical ideas while playing and composing,” Vogt adds.

Combining the best of Steinberg’s sound generation technology with top-rate sample content, Hypersonic 2 features not only a 1.7 GB huge sound library but also four specially engineered synthesizer engines. Over 1800 factory presets offer a massive range of first-class sounds that cover the full range of modern and classical instruments and sound sources including pianos and keyboards, strings and wind instruments, drums and percussion, guitars and basses, drum loops, sound FX and much, much more.

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Hypersonic 2 also incorporates a range of features to aid swift editing over the enormous range of sounds included. The mixer panel provides full control for panning, output channel and FX levels per patch, while the new patch editor allows speedy access to every sound-shaping parameter. Hyperphrase – a new polyphonic arpeggiator with MIDI file import – is also included, further extending the creative options available. Hypersonic 2 also features the successful HyperKnobs editing concept first seen in Hypersonic 1, offering tailored controls for each patch that allow quick, effective sound tweaking for the most important parameters.

Hypersonic 2 also includes exciting new features for live keyboarders using its immense sonic palette on stage. A new live play mode allows the dynamic loading of patch sets into memory whilst another set is being played. Because the patch change can be triggered with any MIDI controller such as the Mod Wheel or any key, keyboarders playing Hypersonic 2 live can swiftly and dynamically integrate new sounds directly into their performance without even having to look at the computer screen.

Hypersonic 2 is ready for Windows XP and Mac OSX, and supports the VST, DXi and AU standards; ReWire support allows easy integration into Pro Tools® software. A standalone version is also provided.

[Jeremy_NSL]

Yeah, when I started sampling I sampled everything at 44khz, and downsampled each note that didn't sound significantly worse at a lower rate. So on the lower notes of a keyboard, you could easily save 25%-50%. And surprisingly, 50-75% of entire samplesets could be downsampled to 32khz with almost no difference.

But now I just don't bother. Honestly it takes too long, and looping by hand takes so long already! And no one is quibbling over a few mb.

Still I think it would have been fun to work on those old hardware samplers, optimizing and working to get the best out of your 4mb or whatever There just isn't any incentive to do that now.