Do we really need more than 100 velocity layers?

[Amberience]

Coming from a sample users perspective... I like the freedom to load up 127 different samples and make the effort to map them all to one key, each on a different vel. layer.

This functionality offers stunning possibilities for glitch and other types of electronic music.

[hollowsun]

They all probably worship Justin Timberlake.

Who, let's face it, right or wrong and all other areguments aside, has sold sh*tloads of records and achieved major worldwide airplay

Let's be honest, who here doesn't envy his royalty cheques?

And when I've seen his fans interviewed, none complained that his drum sound was lacking in subtle dynamics

The very nature of the music he makes (like it or not) is such that Buddy Rich/Gene Krupa subtlety is not the order of the day!


Steve

[griels]

They all probably worship Justin Timberlake.

Who, let's face it, right or wrong and all other areguments aside, has sold sh*tloads of records and achieved major worldwide airplay

Let's be honest, who here doesn't envy his royalty cheques?

Not I And I actually love the production of The Neptunes/Timbaland.

The very nature of the music he makes (like it or not) is such that Buddy Rich/Gene Krupa subtlety is not the order of the day!


Steve

Indeed not... It's the order of my day though

The discussions about drum position are pretty valid though I think.. With drum rolls/fills, having some extra positions to play with makes a lot of difference, probably enough to reduce the necessity for huge numbers of velocity layers. On the other hand, cymbal and rides can have a lot of variation even at the lowest velocities, essential for getting swells right.

[Amberience]

Let's be honest, who here doesn't envy his royalty cheques?

Envy? Isn't that a sin. You bad boy.

[hollowsun]

Depends what you're sampling. I'm not so sure you could get the accuracy required to get 127 levels of an accoustic guitar.

Or, indeed, drums!

If you're sampling a synth though.. damn right I want 127

Absolutely - especially them highly favoured vintage analogues with a velocity range of 0-1 ..... off or on!

Or those mainstays of many a good dance floor filler, the TR808, 909, Linn, etc.... 0-2 ..... off/medium/full

Don't tell me....

You'll be wanting 96k/24-bit samples of the 15k/8(ish)-bit LinnDrum next!!!

But now I am being facetious


Steve

[hollowsun]

Let's be honest, who here doesn't envy his royalty cheques?

Envy? Isn't that a sin. You bad boy.

I know... shameful isn't it!


Steve

[BFDrummer]

But let me add this question to the equation for those who want 128 layers (or more):

Would you actually be prepared to pay for the considerable amount of extra work required for a 128 layered collection (and 'round-robin' variations, etc.)? Samples don't grow on trees ya know!

Or is this level of detail expected for free as well?




Steve

I think people will pay for what they want. And companies will provide for them ... and competition will drive keep the prices down.

But anyway, making sample libraries with more velocity layers is not going to make it MUCH more costly to make is it? I mean, the main costs are just 'doing it in the first place', surely? ....hiring the studio, instrument, pressing, packaging etc etc

I would say price is probably decided more on the basis of market forces and the size of the company that is releasing it rather than the actual number of samples recorded and chopped and mapped and burned onto dvd.

As a buyer price is certainly not a reliable guide to either the quality of a sample library or its size (including the number of velocity layers).

IME the better the sample recordings are, the bigger the library, the more velocity layers etc etc then generally the better VALUE it is.

But as has been said on this thread at least 128 times: different libraries for different jobs.

I bought one library (with a very basic VST player) for £120 - and how big was the library ? 180MB!
sample quality? ....iffy to say the least!
velocity layers ? 1

BUT this is the ONLY company to do these instruments and I knew what I was paying for and what it would be able to acheive (or not) sonically and I STILL wanted it so I bought it and was happy

[hollowsun]

Not I

Ha!

And I actually love the production of The Neptunes/Timbaland.

Me too. Can't say I actually like the stuff (tho some toons get my toes tapping) but I gotta hand it to the lad!

Indeed not... It's the order of my day though

Which is fine by me ... each to their own. But would you pay for all that extra detail is my question!

The discussions about drum position are pretty valid though I think.. With drum rolls/fills, having some extra positions to play with makes a lot of difference, probably enough to reduce the necessity for huge numbers of velocity layers. On the other hand, cymbal and rides can have a lot of variation even at the lowest velocities, essential for getting swells right.

Agreed... from experience.


Steve

[hollowsun]

But anyway, making sample libraries with more velocity layers is not going to make it MUCH more costly to make is it? I mean, the main costs are just 'doing it in the first place', surely? ....hiring the studio, instrument, pressing, packaging etc etc

BFDrummmer - I would venture to suggest that you, sir, have not sat in front of a computer/sampler with literally thousands of samples to edit, normalise, optimise, map, program and otherwise do what is required to deliver professional samples to the market!

The "just 'doing it in the first place'" that you so quaintly refer to is just one small part of the equation. But if the requirements of "just 'doing it'" are four velocities, that's a few days studio hire. But if "just 'doing it'" is 128... well ... you do the maths!

Similarly, work out the cost overheads of employing people to do 16 times the amount of sample editing and programming work... and then everything else I referred to.


Steve

[Stupid American Pig]

I remember editing samples of my rhodes to make a soundfont a few years back. I did 3 velocity layers. I realized that I just wasnt put on this world to make sample sets.

[Amberience]

Absolutely - especially them highly favoured vintage analogues with a velocity range of 0-1 ..... off or on!

See I was thinking more along the lines of synths with midi inputs

[BFDrummer]

BFDrummmer - I would venture to suggest that you, sir, have not sat in front of a computer/sampler with literally thousands of samples to edit, normalise, optimise, map, program and otherwise do what is required to deliver professional samples to the market!



Steve

Not thousands..... but certainly hundreds, recording wise it's not much more effort at all .... OK it does take a teensy while longer to edit and map I agree

But no one is going to attempt big libraries unless they think they can sell lots of them ...and there does seem to be a demand for them ...so everyone's happy I guess...

[Caleb]

Depends what you're sampling. I'm not so sure you could get the accuracy required to get 127 levels of an accoustic guitar.

If you're sampling a synth though.. damn right I want 127

You want 127 velocity layers on a synth? What for?

I can understand the demand on an accoustic source like a piano or guitar although even then 127 seems a bit much to me. Smaller sets with clever programming are a better idea but multiple velocity layers are appreciated here.

But on an instrument like a synth, I'm usually happy with 1 velocity layer and then use the synthesis elements of my sampler/player to make it interesting.

I've never thought about having more than 1 velocity layer with a synth sampleset before.

Caleb

[Angus_FX]

You'll be wanting 96k/24-bit samples of the 15k/8(ish)-bit LinnDrum next!!!

With 8 Bit Kit that's almost what we did... vintage drum machines pumped out at different volumes through a multi-mic'ed PA, with the end result mapped to velocity in BFD. Well worth the effort, I might add -- completely unique-sounding, especially on the kicks and snares.

[hollowsun]

With 8 Bit Kit that's almost what we did... vintage drum machines pumped out at different volumes through a multi-mic'ed PA, with the end result mapped to velocity in BFD. Well worth the effort, I might add -- completely unique-sounding, especially on the kicks and snares.

That's very interesting Angus - I am sure it sounded great.

Ah! Micing up synths and drum machines through real amps and speaker - another lost art (or at least, rarely practiced these days)!


Steve