KVR Audio

GOD-FIL · Post by **GOD-FIL** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:28 am

For some time I'm wondering how much different are the audio engines in various host programs and how much (if) it affects final sound quality.

I've heard many different opinions, first theory says that your audio quality has nothing to do with hosts and is only dependent on generators, plugins and effects you're using. This is the theory where your host is basicaly just a tool and it's up to you and your plugins how good your final sound will be.

Opossite opinion is that different hosts have very different mixing capabilities and some hosts just have better audio engines than others, so you can achieve better results. So according to this second theory for example if you would do 1:1 absolutely exact same short part of music using the same external plugins etc. it would sound significantly better in Logic or Sonar than in FLS or Orion

Are there any sophisticated opinions about this? Any personal experiences in noticing audio quality differences by switching hosts? I don't have all these "BIG" sequencers available to test it so any feedback would be appreciated. Also if there are actually big differences, what hosts are known for best engines and would be worth steping up to them?

Thanks

rbet · Post by **rbet** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:38 am

here we go again.

Bas · Post by **Bas** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:09 am

It is a common question, and a common argument come to that.

IMO, the main hosts have very similar engines at this point. The bit depth inside the engine will affect the math that is applied to the signals as they pass through it, so there will be some differecnes. How much rounding of figures will affect the final sound. 32 Bit signals verses 32 bit float will give different sound, or at least marginally different numbers.

When moving to SX from VST, the sound was noticeably less harsh. That was likely to be the summing (the math) in the audio engine, as the same wave file on both VST and SX sounded the same, but the effect was noticable when mixing multiple tracks.

funkadil · Post by **funkadil** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:18 am

Isn't there a way to test? Audio file comparison?

aallvor · Post by **aallvor** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:27 am

Personally I can hear a difference between different apps. But in terms of "best" or "better"; that's entirely up to each and everyone to decide for themselves..

Imo, Live is the only sequencer I would say is unusable in terms of sound quality, I'd happily make music on anything else.

Best

AD80 · Post by **AD80** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:00 am

Audio engines dont matter AFAIC. Tracktion has 64bit mixing but if your music sucks its not gonna matter. I rather concentrate on mixing techniques and the music of course.

aMUSEd · Post by **aMUSEd** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:11 am

I used to think this but recent experiences with Tracktion and the Sonar demo have proven otherwise. I have rendering problem in Tracktion I don't have in my old version of Logic and as for Sonar, you can't record audio without the engine stuttering and then choking. I don't get that in Logic, Project 5 v2 (strangely considering it should be the same as Sonar) or Orion. Also Orion is the only one that can load my Hartmann Neuron VS and play/record it without problems which is amazing - I know the Neuron is buggy but it was only tested on Steinberg hosts so maybe Orion conforms better to VST standards or something (who'd have thunk it)

flugel45 · Post by **flugel45** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:37 pm

aMUSEd wrote:....and as for Sonar, you can't record audio without the engine stuttering and then choking. I don't get that in Logic, Project 5 v2 (strangely considering it should be the same as Sonar) or Orion.

Just for balance, my Sonar works just fine (version 4, same as the demo).

JD

Baniev · Post by **Baniev** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:36 pm

I think only the generators make the quality, In all hosts you can chose with which Khz rate you work but to go higher than 44100 Khz is bullshit because we only can hear up to 20 KHz. And i can tell only between cubase and FL Studio that the generators sounds same and in both you havn´t suming or how it tells (the sound that you can hear on cheap radios if you turn them loud in cassette mode)

Baniev · Post by **Baniev** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:46 pm

rbet wrote:here we go again.

I most like hard discussions in forums, so let´s beginn

cron · Post by **cron** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 7:54 pm

This comes up quite a lot.

funkadil wrote:Isn't there a way to test? Audio file comparison?

Somebody round these parts (nuffink?) tested this by rendering the same project in 2 hosts. The 2 audio files cancelled perfectly when one was phase inverted and mixed back on to the other. Any difference people hear between 2 hosts can usually be put down to one host simply having a louder output level than the other.

AD80 · Post by **AD80** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:18 pm

flugel45 wrote:
aMUSEd wrote:....and as for Sonar, you can't record audio without the engine stuttering and then choking. I don't get that in Logic, Project 5 v2 (strangely considering it should be the same as Sonar) or Orion.

Just for balance, my Sonar works just fine (version 4, same as the demo).

JD

Well for even more balance, I've been using Tracktion for years with no problems. 64bit mixing engine and all. I still dont think it would make my music any better or worse SONICALLY to switch to another host.

jens · Post by **jens** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:30 pm

cron wrote:This comes up quite a lot.

funkadil wrote:Isn't there a way to test? Audio file comparison?
Somebody round these parts (nuffink?) tested this by rendering the same project in 2 hosts. The 2 audio files cancelled perfectly when one was phase inverted and mixed back on to the other. Any difference people hear between 2 hosts can usually be put down to one host simply having a louder output level than the other.

yup- did this test as well Sonar (all versions of Sonar cancel perfectly with each other) and Tracktion 1 cancelled perfectly - one huge difference of course might appear dues to different panning laws so you have to keep that in mind when doing such a test...

b.t.w.: I predict that Live as well will cancel perfectly with other sequencers...

aalvor wrote: Imo, Live is the only sequencer I would say is unusable in terms of sound quality, I'd happily make music on anything else.

Left Headphone · Post by **Left Headphone** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:32 pm

I recently rendered two Guru(the demo) drum tracks (16 bit no FX's)one in Sonar4SE and the other in FLS5(Sinc depth 256).

There was a difference in the audio quality. I'm not going to say which sounded better, but it will be easy to hear once you do it.

Play the two tracks back in something other than Sonar or FLS5...

Baniev · Post by **Baniev** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:37 pm

Left Headphone wrote:I recently rendered two Guru(the demo) drum tracks (16 bit no FX's)one in Sonar4SE and the other in FLS5(Sinc depth 256).

There was a difference in the audio quality. I'm not going to say which sounded better, but it will be easy to hear once you do it.

Play the two tracks back in something other than Sonar or FLS5...

Please give me an advice how to set the settings in the FL Studio control panel, i never had set anything there, and i think that my mp3 tracks sounds same as my projectfile if i play them with the sequenzer. anyway should i set the interpolation to another option then Linear?

Audio Engines