KVR Audio

kylen · Post by **kylen** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:07 am

I think that in general most dsp developers take great pains to make sure most phase shift is removed from their EQs. However I would like to try out any existing ones that are similar to the PhaseTone which actually introduces vast amounts of phase shift at various frequencies and Q settings:
http://www.tritonedigital.com/products.htm#phasetone

I'm just learning about these so any tidbits are most welcome. I'm a little clumsy with it right now but I'm tuning the Phase Tone to tame a hi-hat tick-tick-tick that was stupidly mixed too loud on top of a snare and vocal...argh! Seems to be doing the trick better than all my EQs which are too precise for this type of repair...

I see phase rotators on the low end on plugins like LFMax and Stardust (Stardust blows up Sonar5).

Any full spectrum Phase rotator VST/DX EQ ideas?

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:50 am

A number of things comes to mind when thinking phase:

phaser
flanger
chorus
leslie sim
talkbox
vocoder

If not any to your liking at KVR you might try www.vstcentral.com as well.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:25 pm

BetabugsAudio's SpinBug is a rotary effect based almost entirely upon phase shifting.

For static or automated phase trickery on a stereo (or doubled mono, of course) source, there's PhaseBug. Both coded by Christian W. Budde.

Greg

Debutante · Post by **Debutante** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:29 pm

...check the unfinished freebie from mgaudio called Phaseshifter. Also try betabugs Phasebug. There's a PHP769....or something from Voxengo as well. And if you can, send for a copy og PLParEQ3 from Refined Audiometrics. It is an eq with very interesting phase options.

Alex@ProgressAudio · Post by **Alex@ProgressAudio** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 6:35 pm

There's a phase adjustment plug that you might like to try HERE called PhasePhix

kylen · Post by **kylen** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:41 pm

Thanks folks! I think lfm has mentioned the items closest to what I'm looking for. I'm not technical enough to be able to describe it in great detail that's why I mentioned Phase Tone. It reminds me of a static flanger (without the short delay and modulation) where I can manually sweep to a particular frequency and have it stay there except it is out of phase - in place.

I think some of the other suggestions like PhasePhix and the Voxengo have group delay (hehe I'm on thin ice here!) and affect the entire freq spectrum. I'm looking for a tool that affects a particular freq at a particular bandwidth - to alter the phase in that one spot.

I also have the marvelous PLParEQ3 and see David's work with phase shift all over the internet - he has learned to control it. I want to unleash it.

I'm talking about a mono signal and just applying a phase shift at 7KHz (fairly high Q), for example, to smear and soften. I've tried this with Phase Tone and like what I hear but would like to hear what other EQs of this type might do - if any exist.

I suppose a combing filter comes to mind also - one that I could set in place where it won't sweep. Possibly PSP Nitro and lfm mentioned vocoders which I didn't look at yet...

I could use some more ideas or discussion - I don't think I'm able to communicate the idea very well yet - I have to lean on Phase Tone for the example. Maybe I'll do some track null testing - might give me an idea of how to verbalize things better.

greendoor · Post by **greendoor** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:38 pm

I was going to suggest PLParEQ3 on the All Pass setting. Initially I was shocked at the phase shift this introduced, until I read about All Pass filters and realised it was doing what it is designed to do.

Maybe try multiple instances of an All Pass filter (for more "stages" in the phase shift) - or combine with delays for a more linear phase "flanger" type of effect.

greendoor · Post by **greendoor** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:55 pm

What about convolution - that can introduce phase smearing. Combined with an eq you could control the frequency band you want to smear.

Music Engineer · Post by **Music Engineer** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:58 pm

kylen wrote: I see phase rotators on the low end on plugins like LFMax and Stardust (Stardust blows up Sonar5).

Any full spectrum Phase rotator VST/DX EQ ideas?

you could "abuse" my Psycho-Phaser plugIn for that. set it to 100% wet and use no LFO-modulation of the allpass's characteristic frequency - this gives you a static allpass-filter which introduces a frequency-dependent phase-shift.

kylen · Post by **kylen** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:25 pm

Good suggestion Greendoor, I was reading about the All Pass in PLParEQ3 and in Electri-Q and it looked interesting on paper. If I set the allpass filter first followed by a peaking filter then I get a very similar track nulling signature to Phase Tone.

I guess I need to think about this some more - I'm not sure how much of the sound I like in the cut is due to phase shift now...maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here. Maybe a cut is a cut is a cut...I don't think I have a grip on the sound and measurement of phase distortion yet...

kylen · Post by **kylen** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:29 pm

Thanks braindoc - downloaded & trying it out.

Greendoor - thanks again about convolution, yes that is a pretty good smearing idea I'll give that a better look too!

kylen · Post by **kylen** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:23 am

braindoc wrote:you could "abuse" my Psycho-Phaser plugIn for that. set it to 100% wet and use no LFO-modulation of the allpass's characteristic frequency - this gives you a static allpass-filter which introduces a frequency-dependent phase-shift.

Yes - thanks again braindoc - Psycho-Phaser is a very good match to Phase Tone, in fact Psycho-Phaser has a little more capability for my needs as far as I can tell.

Also - very cool of you to allow 1 stage which is just what I need to use this as an EQ. The next runner up was Kjaerhus Classic Phaser - because it allows minimum of 4 stages there is always cuts at multiple freqs which won't work as an EQ - or as you correctly say braindoc - when "abusing" a fine Phaser like Psycho-Phaser...

PS: Thanks for sharing your thoughts and ideas in the cool manual too:
[LINK REMOVED]

Music Engineer · Post by **Music Engineer** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:55 pm

kylen wrote: Also - very cool of you to allow 1 stage which is just what I need to use this as an EQ. The next runner up was Kjaerhus Classic Phaser - because it allows minimum of 4 stages there is always cuts at multiple freqs which won't work as an EQ

yes, i always try to provide wide parameter ranges and leave it to the responsibility of the user to decide which settings make sense and which don't. as for the convolution approach: i'm not quite sure, but i believe for a pure phase-shift, sine-sweep like signals should be used as impulse response.

kylen · Post by **kylen** » Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:07 am

greendoor wrote:What about convolution - that can introduce phase smearing. Combined with an eq you could control the frequency band you want to smear.

OK - got it greendoor! After tweaking some focusrite and API impulses in Perfect Space (Voxengo - son of Pristine Space for Sonar5) I got a pretty big smile on my face. There's a world of things that can be done depending on the impulse, adjusting impulse length, and wet EQ like you mentioned.

I've tried this before but never fully appreciated it or heard it. I guess I was always thinking reverb and space. Now it's pretty easy to hear the phase and combing coming in as I bring up the wet signal. SPAN also shows the effects of the combing like a big dog! It's a phase distortion supermarket using all the cool noisevault impulses...

...there's even a spaceecho one where you can hear the rubber capstan with a bump in it...haha easy to get off track with this stuff.

Anyway - back to softening cold hard "presence" and "treble" with convolution impulses.

Thanks!

Phase shift - Phase rotator type EQs ?