See this thread over at the Tracktion forum for more details. (first post quoted below my blurb)
It looks very useful, and very much in line with the new envelope tempo changes in eXT. Maybe there is a way to have tap tempo transformed into an envelope in eXT. Even being able to use a MIDI note to create the tempo track would be great, so you could tap on a key on your MIDI keyboard, or use one of the audio-to-MIDI note trigger vsts to create a tap tempo from a live (or recorded) audio drum session from a kick drum. Great for having eXT sync live with a drummer.
Here's a copy of the initial post from the thread:
"Years ago I used Opcode's Studio Vision Pro. SVP had a few very cool functions that I still miss. One was the ability to map out tempo with key clicks or midi notes. For example you could play back an existing midi file and tap on a given MIDI note and it would play back the existing MIDI file at the tempo you were tapping out. It also allowed you to save the tempo track you had just tapped out.
Conversely, you could play a midi track with a totally free tempo, slowing down and speeding up at will. Then you could rerecord a tap track in sync with what you had played and set it to the tempo track leaving the existing MIDI part you had played untouched. Once the tempo track and the played track were identified with one another, you could simply erase the tempo track and your performed track would play back with a strict set beat.
You could also apply these tempo changes to audio, but there were some limitations, like you could not hear audio playing in sync with you as you tapped out a live tempo.
It was neat cause you could do something like:
1 - play a song with no click track, slowing down on the hard sections and speeding through the easy ones.
2. Lay down the tempo matching what you had performed.
3. Strip out all the unpleasant tempo irregularities.
4. Finally, record a tempo track with as few or as many tempo changes as you wished in much the same way that a conductor controls playback tempo with an orchestra."
Does this sound great or what?
I just found this thread which also outlines a need for tap tempo to MIDI Clock in software. Seems Ableton Live can do this. Hmm. I'm trying to hold-out buying that program.
FR: dynamic tempo tap track idea from Studio Vision Pro
-
- KVRAF
- 5350 posts since 8 Aug, 2003 from Berlin Germany
If we had CC map to tempo then I could make a tap tempo plugin in a minute. It can use a tap of the mouse or midi keys or a foot controller.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 333 posts since 23 Apr, 2003
That would be excellent! You make it sound easy. Thx for your input Soma.soma wrote:If we had CC map to tempo then I could make a tap tempo plugin in a minute. It can use a tap of the mouse or midi keys or a foot controller.
-
- KVRian
- 1256 posts since 22 Aug, 2003
That definitely sounds like one of the greatest ideas I've ever heard...
Imagine being able to play in an expressive piano solo, and then you go back and record in a tap tempo (using the same expression) - then you click a button and the piano solo transforms so that it fits each bar perfectly, as if you were playing it perfectly in time when you recorded it, but it sounds the same as you played it when you play it along with the new tempo automation. That means that you can program in drums or other instruments or whatever you want without having to try to match up the beats with the piano solo (since they both take place on the same time-grid).
You could even... wow, you could even copy certain notes from the recorded MIDI track, and use THAT as the tap track, so there's no guess-work involved
and if you don't have a note on every beat, maybe some kind of interpolation could be implemented to make a smooth tempo curve from a collection of beats.
For example, if you play "A - A - " (those are 4 beats), perhaps, if you select "Interpolation" mode for the creation of the tempo track from the tap, eXT would realize that the distance between the two A's is more like 2 beats than one beat, and use interpolation to determine beats in between. In this way, you could potentially "reverse expression transform" an entire MIDI track without doing any manual work yourself besides selecting which notes should be used as the "key" beats from the MIDI track, copying them over into the tap track, selecting Interpolate mode, and then clicking "Tempo Transform".
Imagine being able to play in an expressive piano solo, and then you go back and record in a tap tempo (using the same expression) - then you click a button and the piano solo transforms so that it fits each bar perfectly, as if you were playing it perfectly in time when you recorded it, but it sounds the same as you played it when you play it along with the new tempo automation. That means that you can program in drums or other instruments or whatever you want without having to try to match up the beats with the piano solo (since they both take place on the same time-grid).
You could even... wow, you could even copy certain notes from the recorded MIDI track, and use THAT as the tap track, so there's no guess-work involved
and if you don't have a note on every beat, maybe some kind of interpolation could be implemented to make a smooth tempo curve from a collection of beats.For example, if you play "A - A - " (those are 4 beats), perhaps, if you select "Interpolation" mode for the creation of the tempo track from the tap, eXT would realize that the distance between the two A's is more like 2 beats than one beat, and use interpolation to determine beats in between. In this way, you could potentially "reverse expression transform" an entire MIDI track without doing any manual work yourself besides selecting which notes should be used as the "key" beats from the MIDI track, copying them over into the tap track, selecting Interpolate mode, and then clicking "Tempo Transform".
-
- KVRAF
- 5350 posts since 8 Aug, 2003 from Berlin Germany
Here is a little tool I whipped up. It might not help yet, but it can send a CC for BPM you tap or feed via a midi note or tapped CC. It can update a host's tempo if the host supports this (XT doesn't).
It might be helpful now for determining the tempo you are tapping.
http://soma.spoonboiler.com/plugs/Soma_ ... _Alpha.zip
The labels on the options window are a bit messed up:
Input and Cannel in shoudl be switched and so should CC out and Ch out.
It might be helpful now for determining the tempo you are tapping.
http://soma.spoonboiler.com/plugs/Soma_ ... _Alpha.zip
The labels on the options window are a bit messed up:
Input and Cannel in shoudl be switched and so should CC out and Ch out.
-
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 333 posts since 23 Apr, 2003
Great idea Rellik! That interpolation function sounds like a very useable idea.
I have been wanting to have a useable system that I can play drums live, freak out and switch up the beat non-stop, and then be able to painlessly sequence along some psycho breakbeats and tempo-synced fx afterwards. (or live)
I just found this Circular Logic Intime Tempo Tracking Software which I have not tried yet, so maybe this could work to some effect. Downloading now.. It is $160US though.. better be hot!
Soma, that is really cool! Thanks so much. I'm sure I can find a use for it other than the intended purpose! Thanks again! Now to get it working in eXT. FR + 1
I have been wanting to have a useable system that I can play drums live, freak out and switch up the beat non-stop, and then be able to painlessly sequence along some psycho breakbeats and tempo-synced fx afterwards. (or live)
I just found this Circular Logic Intime Tempo Tracking Software which I have not tried yet, so maybe this could work to some effect. Downloading now.. It is $160US though.. better be hot!
Soma, that is really cool! Thanks so much. I'm sure I can find a use for it other than the intended purpose! Thanks again! Now to get it working in eXT. FR + 1
-
- KVRAF
- 3387 posts since 21 May, 2004 from Deep in the Heartlessness of Texas
Soooo -- Is there the possibility in the near future that EXT will let you tap in hits with a MIDI controller, following the time of a varying-tempo audio file, and have that MIDI file become the tempo map?
I'm more than a little crazed on this subject, as I want to be able to play a guitar track in, have the sequencer follow that track's tempo changes, and have a VST like JamStix play in tempo with it.
In another thread, I also got turned on to InTempo, which looks cool, and would perfectly solve this issue, as long as the involved sequencer accepts a MIDI track for defining tempo changes. But I wouldn't at all mind the intermediate chore of tapping in single notes with a MIDI controller, to set a tempo map.
You'd think it wouldn't be that hard, and I think being locked into tempo before expressively laying down an audio track is maybe THE major limitation of digital recording for us retarded guitarist-types.
Take care,
GreyLion
I'm more than a little crazed on this subject, as I want to be able to play a guitar track in, have the sequencer follow that track's tempo changes, and have a VST like JamStix play in tempo with it.
In another thread, I also got turned on to InTempo, which looks cool, and would perfectly solve this issue, as long as the involved sequencer accepts a MIDI track for defining tempo changes. But I wouldn't at all mind the intermediate chore of tapping in single notes with a MIDI controller, to set a tempo map.
You'd think it wouldn't be that hard, and I think being locked into tempo before expressively laying down an audio track is maybe THE major limitation of digital recording for us retarded guitarist-types.
Take care,
GreyLion
-
- KVRAF
- 3387 posts since 21 May, 2004 from Deep in the Heartlessness of Texas
Hmmm... I just realized how much I've been saying and thinking lately "But surely it would be EASY to do this" when it comes to adding some sort of ability to easily create a tempo map in a sequencer, just by tapping in MIDI notes.
But if it was all that easy, everybody would have done it by now. There's something major required that I don't understand, I think, and I fear that I may have been trivializing some work that is perhaps a major chore for a developer. If so, my apologies...
Take care,
GreyLion
But if it was all that easy, everybody would have done it by now. There's something major required that I don't understand, I think, and I fear that I may have been trivializing some work that is perhaps a major chore for a developer. If so, my apologies...
Take care,
GreyLion
-
- KVRAF
- 3387 posts since 21 May, 2004 from Deep in the Heartlessness of Texas
So, I've been searching this forum some more after work today. Is mapping an envelope track to tempo the thing that I want? I can't quite tell from the posts I've found whether it works that way. Guess I need to do some more research...
-
- KVRAF
- 1617 posts since 19 Mar, 2002 from Victoria, BC
Just thought I'd point out that somas plugin works pretty well in 'live mode' for the sequencer (by setting the tempo range from 10 to 250. If you could set the tempo range on the plugin that would be awesome, then as long as you matched that tempo range in the sequencer for live mode, you would have an easy tap tempo solution
-
- KVRAF
- 3387 posts since 21 May, 2004 from Deep in the Heartlessness of Texas
Thanks, glurgle!
I downloaded the XT demo yesterday and played with it for a couple of hours, referring back and forth to the Beginner's Guides and tutorials and other stuff. This is a fascinating piece of software, and I don't understand it much at all yet. But I don't think that envelope tracks are the answer to my desire to tap in a varying tempo.
But XT is so inexpensive and cool that I think I'm gonna have to buy a license this weekend and learn more about it.
With a little luck, before the end of the month, I'll understand what you've suggested.
Take care,
GreyLion
I downloaded the XT demo yesterday and played with it for a couple of hours, referring back and forth to the Beginner's Guides and tutorials and other stuff. This is a fascinating piece of software, and I don't understand it much at all yet. But I don't think that envelope tracks are the answer to my desire to tap in a varying tempo.
But XT is so inexpensive and cool that I think I'm gonna have to buy a license this weekend and learn more about it.
With a little luck, before the end of the month, I'll understand what you've suggested.
Take care,
GreyLion
-
- KVRAF
- 1617 posts since 19 Mar, 2002 from Victoria, BC
oh sorry greylion, I didn't mean that what I suggested would do what you want, because it won't. (yet?)
You can use tempo tracks to automate tempo, and you can use somas plugin to control the tempo when the sequencer is in 'live' mode, but these two things can't interact yet. If/when we can record to an envelope track it may be possible to use the tap tempo plugin to record a tempo envelope track, but not yet.
You can use tempo tracks to automate tempo, and you can use somas plugin to control the tempo when the sequencer is in 'live' mode, but these two things can't interact yet. If/when we can record to an envelope track it may be possible to use the tap tempo plugin to record a tempo envelope track, but not yet.
-
- KVRian
- 1272 posts since 11 Apr, 2002 from Nashville, TN
Wow I just ran across this thread... It got a more positive response here than it did in the Tracktion thread where I posted the original. 
-
- KVRAF
- 3387 posts since 21 May, 2004 from Deep in the Heartlessness of Texas
Hey, Rock -- Yeah, it's a very cool thing to have in a sequencer, especially if you are mostly laying down instrument and vocal tracks, rather than being all electronica. I went moderately crazy about this for about three months, trying out every host I could get my hands on. None of them seemed to work predictably and controllably. Until --
I finally ended up getting Pro Tools M-Powered because Beat Detective does exactly this thing, in a powerful and very tweakable way. I coudn't find any other host that came even close to meeting my need to make tempo match my playing, rather than vice-versa.
There's a related thread here where glurgle generously sent some files that help you do this in live mode, I think. Unfortunately, I couldn't get it to work. Not because of a flaw of his, but because I don't understand EXT properly yet.
I'm enamored of EXT, and hope to use it more, but I'm focussed right now on learning how to use PT gracefully. I look forward to getting to the point, maybe by late this year, where I can use the strengths of both of them together.
Take care,
GreyLion
I finally ended up getting Pro Tools M-Powered because Beat Detective does exactly this thing, in a powerful and very tweakable way. I coudn't find any other host that came even close to meeting my need to make tempo match my playing, rather than vice-versa.
There's a related thread here where glurgle generously sent some files that help you do this in live mode, I think. Unfortunately, I couldn't get it to work. Not because of a flaw of his, but because I don't understand EXT properly yet.
I'm enamored of EXT, and hope to use it more, but I'm focussed right now on learning how to use PT gracefully. I look forward to getting to the point, maybe by late this year, where I can use the strengths of both of them together.
Take care,
GreyLion