KVR Audio

birrbits · Post by **birrbits** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:10 pm

I'm working on a drum sampling project right now & I have a general question for the drum sampling gurus out there.
Upon looking at some commercial (and non commercial) samples of drums I notice that many people seem to leave a ridiculous amount of dead space after every sample.
Using my lil zoom too in Audition I then realized that this wasn't actually dead air, but very very quiet decay from the drums (<-96dB).

This strikes me as being a bit ridiculous, if more than 2/3rds of a sample (or even a third) is below this level, what is the actual point? Instead of a 100k wav, you have a 300k wave of mostly inaudible white noise? Instead of a 30 meg library, you have a 90 meg library where 60 meg is nearly inaudible except at extremely high volumes! Not to mention that you probably wont even hear this in a mix.

So am I crazy for thinking this way?

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:18 pm

I cut it off where it goes under one pixel in my audio editor when zoomed all the way out & normalized (sorry if that doesnt make sense)

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:19 pm

However leaving a bit more would be wiser as when you compress drums you can really bring the tails out

jackson · Post by **jackson** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:44 pm

Chase wrote:I cut it off where it goes under one pixel in my audio editor when zoomed all the way out & normalized (sorry if that doesnt make sense)

I hope you work at a high resolution! Working at 640x480 would differ greatly to 1600x1200

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:06 am

jackson wrote:
Chase wrote:I cut it off where it goes under one pixel in my audio editor when zoomed all the way out & normalized (sorry if that doesnt make sense)
I hope you work at a high resolution! Working at 640x480 would differ greatly to 1600x1200

I'd say it's fine. Here is a completely zoomed out Screenshot of a sample with the marker at the approximate point at which the waveform is quiet enough to fit under one pixel.

Here is a very zoomed in view of where the marker is in the first picture with the surrounding +/- peaks highlighted, peaking at about -70 db (quiet enough for me)

soniccouture · Post by **soniccouture** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:07 am

Well, there's no right answer, its down to what the library is meant to be conceptually.

If you are aiming to achieve a completely natrual, pure representation of the drum kit, then you might want to leave the tails intact. this is, after all , how the drum itself actually sounds.

Or , you might want to take an optimised approach and apply quicker fade outs to the tails, to reduce memory and polyphony, which, if done well, woudl sound perfectly fine.

To be honest, the real problem is with cymbals, which can ring for over a minute. Personally, on our drum library, we faded before that, and also set the polyphony of the cymbal groups to about 16, to stop cpu's going crazy. Applying temperance with the sampler this way is less destructive, and gives the user the choice.

birrbits · Post by **birrbits** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:19 am

Thanks for the suggestions, excellent point soniccouture regarding polyphony. I guess being (older) I tend to lean toward the optimized approach but at the same time I don't want to cut drum or cymbal tails too drastically.

Thanks for your pictures too Chase, I would tend to agree that -70db is more than quiet enough and my approach to finding a good cut point is very similiar to yours, although sometimes i'll just use AA's "delete silence" set around -80 db. Usually I'll apply a quick fade at the end as well to ensure no pops/clicks..

jackson · Post by **jackson** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:31 am

Chase wrote:
jackson wrote:
Chase wrote:I cut it off where it goes under one pixel in my audio editor when zoomed all the way out & normalized (sorry if that doesnt make sense)
I hope you work at a high resolution! Working at 640x480 would differ greatly to 1600x1200
I'd say it's fine. Here is a completely zoomed out Screenshot of a sample with the marker at the approximate point at which the waveform is quiet enough to fit under one pixel.

Here is a very zoomed in view of where the marker is in the first picture with the surrounding +/- peaks highlighted, peaking at about -70 db (quiet enough for me)

True. Hell, you write DnB, right? The dynamics of the tail of an already insanely processed snare drum are hardly the most pressing concern!

If I'm being really fussy, I'll boost the volume like crazy, audition the tail and where the tail hits the noisefloor, cut it right there. Usually though, I'm more than happy to cut it a little short and add my own space (reverb, etc) in the track if I need a longer decay.

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:57 am

jackson wrote: True. Hell, you write DnB, right? The dynamics of the tail of an already insanely processed snare drum are hardly the most pressing concern!

Exactly. Thats why i recommend leaving more space than my system for the sample tails for people that produce music that has more natural sounding drums, as I never have drums by themselves (DNB is a dog-eat-dog world when it comes to sampling - you have to cover up your shit!) so the rest of the track would never be silent for you to here that much detail in the decay of a sample.

Reverse Engineer · Post by **Reverse Engineer** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:59 am

Where can we hear your music anyway chase?

jackson · Post by **jackson** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:07 am

Chase wrote:
jackson wrote: True. Hell, you write DnB, right? The dynamics of the tail of an already insanely processed snare drum are hardly the most pressing concern!
Exactly. Thats why i recommend leaving more space than my system for the sample tails for people that produce music that has more natural sounding drums, as I never have drums by themselves (DNB is a dog-eat-dog world when it comes to sampling - you have to cover up your shit!) so the rest of the track would never be silent for you to here that much detail in the decay of a sample.

Speaking of dog-eat-dog, I'm heading home, gonna stop off for a hotdog on the way and then get to ripping a bunch of beats from some new house records I've been meaning to sample

Mike

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:45 am

Where can we hear your music anyway chase?

Do to being VERY, very busy I havent finished a track in ages, But here is some of my older stuff (4-8 months old, and therefore considered unfinished by me

).
DnB:
1 2 3 4
Non-DnB:
1 2 3 4 5 6
Up-coming unfinished tracks:
1 2 3
Oi, now I feel as if I've Lady J'd up this thread

Reverse Engineer · Post by **Reverse Engineer** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:38 am

Chase wrote:
Where can we hear your music anyway chase?
Do to being VERY, very busy I havent finished a track in ages, But here is some of my older stuff (4-8 months old, and therefore considered unfinished by me ).
DnB:
1 2 3 4
Non-DnB:
1 2 3 4 5 6
Up-coming unfinished tracks:
1 2 3
Oi, now I feel as if I've Lady J'd up this thread

Nice breaks chase. Battery was def the cleanest / best produced one imho. Saying that, sparkle was the track that appealed to me most.....I'm a tad jaded with the d&b scene though, so that was a nice reprise

good stuff altogether though.

The Chase · Post by **The Chase** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:17 am

thanks, mate

hollowsun · Post by **hollowsun** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:44 am

birrbits wrote:This strikes me as being a bit ridiculous, if more than 2/3rds of a sample (or even a third) is below this level, what is the actual point? Instead of a 100k wav, you have a 300k wave of mostly inaudible white noise? Instead of a 30 meg library, you have a 90 meg library where 60 meg is nearly inaudible except at extremely high volumes! Not to mention that you probably wont even hear this in a mix.

Don't get me started

birrbits wrote:So am I crazy for thinking this way?

Not at all.

Chase and Soniccouture's advice is well given.

Steve

Sampling drums, when to make the cut